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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 6:37 pm 
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Grand Master

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wayward wrote:
Crimson_Ghost wrote:
wayward wrote:

As for the coin found, do you think that I believe someone brought that for a candy machine or something? If it is a Templar coin couldn't it have been simply dropped?



Sure it could have dropped...by anyone. Does it mean the Templars were in fact on the island..no it does not.
On a positive note, Templar coins sell on Ebay for less than 50 dollars :mrgreen:




That's exactly what I meant and I don't even know yet if it is a Templar coin and I actually thought they went for more like $450. No, it would not prove they were on the island. But the coconut fibre is better evidence of a Templar presence, as well as the fortress site itself.


Glad to see a rational thought on the coinage at least.


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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 6:49 pm 
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Quote:
The fortress area itself is in someones back yard and has never been properly excavated


I'm interested then, how do we know it is actually a fortress? If there hasn't been an archaeological dig couldn't it be say a 17th Century stone dwelling?
I've been to Quebec city (which is a must see btw, I really loved the place) and it contains some of the oldest European architect in North America. Is it not feasible that New Ross was built in a similar fashion to some of the dwellings/fortifications and later abandoned for a better site?

Has anything been found at New Ross dating to before the 1500's?

Quote:
Scott Wolter (who is an experienced geologist btw)


Can I recommend you read this article when you get the chance:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/scott ... ent-degree

Quote:
(Interestingly, the 2001 profile also contains Wolter's admission that he had no experience or training in examining ancient stone materials, and that his expertise was largely in scientific testing of concrete.)


As far as I am aware prior to the KRS period Scott Wolter's field was concrete stability as Jason's article states. I believe he even was involved in analyzing the Pentagon after the 9/11 plane crash.
He may be very good in that field, put he certainly does not hold a PhD in Archaeology unless he has neglected to mention this?

If this site is in someones backyard, why not ask the Archaeology department at the local college to excavate the site I wonder.
Even that stupid "Searching for Giants" show managed to get UMass archaeologists to come and dig at their site.

Quote:
but he was only looking for gold not evidence of a settlement


How depressing, the History channel must be plumbing the depths.

Quote:
The fact is that a foundation for an ancient site is there at New Ross.


Where is the evidence for this? If it is ancient, somebody must have deemed it such. How did they come to that conclusion? It sounds like there hasn't been a proper dig on the area. There may be local oral traditions, but then they have to be investigated to find if their is any truth in them (the same we would expect with manuscripts or any other record).


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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 7:35 pm 
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Aedis wrote:
Quote:
The fortress area itself is in someones back yard and has never been properly excavated


I'm interested then, how do we know it is actually a fortress? If there hasn't been an archaeological dig couldn't it be say a 17th Century stone dwelling?
I've been to Quebec city (which is a must see btw, I really loved the place) and it contains some of the oldest European architect in North America. Is it not feasible that New Ross was built in a similar fashion to some of the dwellings/fortifications and later abandoned for a better site?

Has anything been found at New Ross dating to before the 1500's?

Quote:
Scott Wolter (who is an experienced geologist btw)


Can I recommend you read this article when you get the chance:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/scott ... ent-degree

Quote:
(Interestingly, the 2001 profile also contains Wolter's admission that he had no experience or training in examining ancient stone materials, and that his expertise was largely in scientific testing of concrete.)


As far as I am aware prior to the KRS period Scott Wolter's field was concrete stability as Jason's article states. I believe he even was involved in analyzing the Pentagon after the 9/11 plane crash.
He may be very good in that field, put he certainly does not hold a PhD in Archaeology unless he has neglected to mention this?

If this site is in someones backyard, why not ask the Archaeology department at the local college to excavate the site I wonder.
Even that stupid "Searching for Giants" show managed to get UMass archaeologists to come and dig at their site.

Quote:
but he was only looking for gold not evidence of a settlement


How depressing, the History channel must be plumbing the depths.

Quote:
The fact is that a foundation for an ancient site is there at New Ross.


Where is the evidence for this? If it is ancient, somebody must have deemed it such. How did they come to that conclusion? It sounds like there hasn't been a proper dig on the area. There may be local oral traditions, but then they have to be investigated to find if their is any truth in them (the same we would expect with manuscripts or any other record).



I have also been to Quebec City, and Nova Scotia, both several times I might add. Joan hope bought the New Ross site in 1972 and became her own amateur archaeologists when she began to discover the old foundations in her backyard. And you don't understand the way this works in Nova Scotia. I had tried to get permission to investigate my own discovery or have "Nova Scotia Museums" help with the investigation. And I did ask the Archaeology dept. at the local collage as well as our own University of Michigan, but I did get nice letters.
Joan had some items dated by the C-14 method to the 14th century. Found a large herm with a cross carved into it and some other things.
Although there have always been stories and legends of early explorers visiting North America, it wasn't until the 1960's that actual archeological proof surfaced. In 1960 a Norse settlement was discovered by Norwegian explorer, Helge Ingstad in the province of Newfounland, Canada. Does anybody really think nobody else visited N.A. before Chris C.?

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 7:43 pm 
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Quote:
Joan had some items dated by the C-14 method to the 14th century. Found a large herm with a cross carved into it and some other things.


Do you have a link to the items in question and the C-14 reports?


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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 9:41 pm 
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Aedis wrote:
Quote:
Joan had some items dated by the C-14 method to the 14th century. Found a large herm with a cross carved into it and some other things.


Do you have a link to the items in question and the C-14 reports?



Joan self published a couple of books about her discoveries before selling her house in New Ross and moving to Ontario. She died several years ago, but a friend of hers continued with a website dedicated to her. Both of Joan's books were free online through this website and I had copied both. I also received lots of other valuable information from Joan's friend, including a very good history of New Ross.
Although Joan was sure she had discovered a 14th century site she never equated it with the Templars. As the Templars had not been of much interest prior to 1982 and she began her research in 1972, I believe this is the reason.
Sadly her friend has discontinued the website, but as noted by Scott Wolter there is still a lot of interest in the New Ross site. One thing that was mentioned by Joan and her friend that is of interest is the old name of New Ross was "Charing Cross", a name that seemed to predate the current British inhabitants. And a name that lives within a 1000 yds. of Temple Church in London.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 9:51 pm 
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wayward wrote:
there is still a lot of interest in the New Ross site.


Not amongst archaeologists evidently, or at least qualified ones.


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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 9:56 pm 
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Joan Harris basically believed that the New Ross site was Norumbega in the 13thC (the castle), followed by a Stuart refuge in the 17thC (mansion within the castle ruins). Unfortunately she also brought aliens and leprechauns into the mix. I recently ran across a local undergraduate paper from Saint Mary's in Halifax - check it out for what it's worth:

http://www.smu.ca/academics/name-70836-en.html

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2014 10:40 pm 
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wayward wrote:
Joan self published a couple of books about her discoveries before selling her house in New Ross and moving to Ontario. She died several years ago, but a friend of hers continued with a website dedicated to her. Both of Joan's books were free online through this website and I had copied both.



Is this the book Jason is discussing here?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/nova- ... ip-fantasy


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014 6:36 pm 
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Aedis wrote:
wayward wrote:
Joan self published a couple of books about her discoveries before selling her house in New Ross and moving to Ontario. She died several years ago, but a friend of hers continued with a website dedicated to her. Both of Joan's books were free online through this website and I had copied both.



Is this the book Jason is discussing here?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/nova- ... ip-fantasy


yes and no, Joan had written several books and the 1997 version was probably her last. I only wish I had not brought her name up here for ridicule. But now that I have I will say that she changed quite a bit during her period in Nova Scotia and if you could read all her books you would see that.
I will also mention that there is ongoing research at Charing Cross which according to the "History of New Ross" by Caroline (Broome) Leopold, was the old name for the central area of New Ross. This name in itself is significant.
I won't bring up New Ross here again until the current researcher posts his conclusions, some of which already seem quite surprising.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014 7:25 pm 
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wayward wrote:
Aedis wrote:
wayward wrote:
Joan self published a couple of books about her discoveries before selling her house in New Ross and moving to Ontario. She died several years ago, but a friend of hers continued with a website dedicated to her. Both of Joan's books were free online through this website and I had copied both.



Is this the book Jason is discussing here?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/nova- ... ip-fantasy


yes and no, Joan had written several books and the 1997 version was probably her last. I only wish I had not brought her name up here for ridicule. But now that I have I will say that she changed quite a bit during her period in Nova Scotia and if you could read all her books you would see that.
I will also mention that there is ongoing research at Charing Cross which according to the "History of New Ross" by Caroline (Broome) Leopold, was the old name for the central area of New Ross. This name in itself is significant.
I won't bring up New Ross here again until the current researcher posts his conclusions, some of which already seem quite surprising.


I wasn't trying to ridicule you, or Joan, Wayward, and I apologize if my comment came off that way. I did read her books over the years and there was a great deal of interest in them - I did also realize what you mention, in terms of her changing - she got older and a bit too credulous, but originally she was quite straightforward and methodical. Having said that, I ultimately thought even her most basic premises were pretty thin when all was said and done. I would need a great deal more evidence to even begin to go where she went with her theories. A lot of things are hypothetically possible around all this seafaring/New World theorizing - that doesn't mean a given idea has ANY validity to it. I have actually read all of the books referenced in the college paper I linked to, because I've always loved the subject, and they all have some interesting material and even conjecture - having said that, you can also readily see how they all cannibalize each other, and repeat the same "facts" almost as givens, the Pohl book being the mothership.

Incidentally, not along this Templar/Sinclair/Viking line, but along the ancient American contact theme, there is a book I enjoyed that some folks might be interested in, "Sailing to Paradise" by Jim Bailey - it makes some of the usual leaps, but is nonetheless full of fascinating historical tidbits.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014 7:53 pm 
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ridicule

I believe the wrong choice of wording was used. In other words, Bill wished he hadn`t mentioned Joan`s name, because he knew her work would be scrutinized. Which by doing so could prove some inaccuracies of the said work.

At the end of the day,everybody wants the truth. The only way to get the truth is by reviewing the subject matter of the topic, weeding out the rights and wrongs.


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014 7:59 pm 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ridicule

I believe the wrong choice of wording was used. In other words, Bill wished he hadn`t mentioned Joan`s name, because he knew her work would be scrutinized. Which by doing so could prove some inaccuracies of the said work.

At the end of the day,everybody wants the truth. The only way to get the truth is by reviewing the subject matter of the topic, weeding out the rights and wrongs.



Please don't put words in my mouth Ghost, I meant the words I used the way I used them!

And I do thank Caelum for what he wrote.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014 9:20 pm 
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wayward wrote:
Crimson_Ghost wrote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ridicule

I believe the wrong choice of wording was used. In other words, Bill wished he hadn`t mentioned Joan`s name, because he knew her work would be scrutinized. Which by doing so could prove some inaccuracies of the said work.

At the end of the day,everybody wants the truth. The only way to get the truth is by reviewing the subject matter of the topic, weeding out the rights and wrongs.



Please don't put words in my mouth Ghost, I meant the words I used the way I used them!

And I do thank Caelum for what he wrote.


I apologize for that Bill. But I hadn`t noticed any ridiculing of Joan`s work here. Just some scrutinizing maybe.
Do you feel her work is accurate and does it have a right to be investigated by others?


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014 9:40 pm 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
wayward wrote:
Crimson_Ghost wrote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ridicule

I believe the wrong choice of wording was used. In other words, Bill wished he hadn`t mentioned Joan`s name, because he knew her work would be scrutinized. Which by doing so could prove some inaccuracies of the said work.

At the end of the day,everybody wants the truth. The only way to get the truth is by reviewing the subject matter of the topic, weeding out the rights and wrongs.



Please don't put words in my mouth Ghost, I meant the words I used the way I used them!

And I do thank Caelum for what he wrote.


I apologize for that Bill. But I hadn`t noticed any ridiculing of Joan`s work here. Just some scrutinizing maybe.



I'm just going to guess you didn't read "Jason Colavito's' article.

At any rate, I feel its best to drop the subject of Joan's website and books. It seems her good friend Lisa did and probably for the same reason. As I said there is ongoing research and I will get back to Charring Cross when that is posted, one way or the other.

But for the time being, I still maintain the Templars came to Nova Scotia and you are welcome to ridicule that premise.
Or how about questioning the possibility that coconut fibre from the Indian Ocean floated on various currents until it landed on the Shores of Oak Island as Aedis suggested?

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 12:40 am 
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wayward,

Just to recap since this thread has had a number of posts over the past day and off-site links:

1.) In your opinion the castle at New Ross is probably mislabeled (if it exists). As you've suggested it is more of a fort than any kind of serious Medieval castle structure. By your estimate as a stone mason, a small group of skilled craftsmen with simplish tools could build this in several months.
2.) The site has never been properly excavated by archaeologists (as far as we know?), so we currently have no concrete proof it is a 14th Century structure.
3.) No other signs of a settlement supporting the fort have been found. You've suggested this could be due to the fact that the surrounding area has been built/plowed over.
4.) No other artifacts as far as we are aware (tools, coins, grave stones etc.) have been found in the area surrounding the fort.
5.) Joan Harris found some items. She had them carbon tested. But we don't have a copy of the report, and the cross + items she found aren't available any more to view?
6.) Harris reports that the Carbon dating placed the items between 600 CE and 1000 CE
7.) Harris places the date of the Herm at 800 CE

Thanks,


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 1:32 am 
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wayward wrote:


I'm just going to guess you didn't read "Jason Colavito's' article.



I just read Colavito`s article, and minus phallus stuff, which was pretty gross, I didn`t see to much wrong with it.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 1:52 am 
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One thing I guess I don't understand is. Joan Hope Harris claims her artifacts were dated by experts and they fall into the 600 CE - 1000 CE range.

How does this provide evidence though of a Templar settlement by those who cite New Ross as the site where they made camp?


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 2:10 am 
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wayward wrote:

But for the time being, I still maintain the Templars came to Nova Scotia and you are welcome to ridicule that premise.
Or how about questioning the possibility that coconut fibre from the Indian Ocean floated on various currents until it landed on the Shores of Oak Island as Aedis suggested?


Oh I won`t ridicule(laugh at or mock,or even tease you) but I might scrutinize(examine,study,search inquire) a little bit.

Quote:
Viking or Norse explorers carrying coconut fibre for packing or ropes is unlikely as they were not known to have traded in the Eastern Mediterranean where it was available.

this was a quote from you back in January.
http://www3.gettysburg.edu/~tshannon/hist106web/site9/Jeff/vikings_homeland_is_scandinavian.htm
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777122292/
http://adeegan.umwblogs.org/previous-works/page-on-early-medieval-trade-routes/
Just a few links that seem to think otherwise.

Despite the links, trading was a pretty extensive thing back then. Even if the Vikings never made into the Mediterranean, what`s to say they didn`t trade with other peoples who did, acquiring the coconut fibre from someone else. Or is this too far fetched of an idea?
Oops almost forgot this onehttp://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/
Wow, I could find these all day...https://books.google.com/books?id=cO7g4WBBK9YC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=mediterranean+silk+in+viking+burials&source=bl&ots=jWkga6dTFj&sig=JoxoymxJrtM9NR2cGjDYemxNf3o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F_OMVP22LYSrNvzrgaAK&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mediterranean%20silk%20in%20viking%20burials&f=false


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 2:24 am 
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Quote:
Viking or Norse explorers carrying coconut fibre for packing or ropes is unlikely as they were not known to have traded in the Eastern Mediterranean where it was available.


The Viking age is considered to have been between 793CE and 1066CE. Northern European's certainly were trading, fighting and settling in the eastern part of the Med, eastern Europe and Russia during this period.

And has nobody heard of Varangians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

Trade routes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trad ... routes.png


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 12:59 pm 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
wayward wrote:

But for the time being, I still maintain the Templars came to Nova Scotia and you are welcome to ridicule that premise.
Or how about questioning the possibility that coconut fibre from the Indian Ocean floated on various currents until it landed on the Shores of Oak Island as Aedis suggested?


Oh I won`t ridicule(laugh at or mock,or even tease you) but I might scrutinize(examine,study,search inquire) a little bit.

Quote:
Viking or Norse explorers carrying coconut fibre for packing or ropes is unlikely as they were not known to have traded in the Eastern Mediterranean where it was available.

this was a quote from you back in January.
http://www3.gettysburg.edu/~tshannon/hist106web/site9/Jeff/vikings_homeland_is_scandinavian.htm
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777122292/
http://adeegan.umwblogs.org/previous-works/page-on-early-medieval-trade-routes/
Just a few links that seem to think otherwise.

Despite the links, trading was a pretty extensive thing back then. Even if the Vikings never made into the Mediterranean, what`s to say they didn`t trade with other peoples who did, acquiring the coconut fibre from someone else. Or is this too far fetched of an idea?
Oops almost forgot this onehttp://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/
Wow, I could find these all day...https://books.google.com/books?id=cO7g4WBBK9YC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=mediterranean+silk+in+viking+burials&source=bl&ots=jWkga6dTFj&sig=JoxoymxJrtM9NR2cGjDYemxNf3o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F_OMVP22LYSrNvzrgaAK&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mediterranean%20silk%20in%20viking%20burials&f=false



In all of your references there is only one ambiguous dotted line showing any trade with the Eastern Mediterranean. The Norse did control the Volga trades routes (very early for our purposes) but the Volga only connects to the Caspian Sea, not the Eastern Med.
One source says the Vikings were quite active in the region of the Iberian Peninsula and the coast of North Africa, still not the Eastern Med.
And you are correct Ghost, the Vikings could have traded with somebody else for coir or coconut fibre, but as I mentioned it probably would have been too early for our 1260 to 1400 dating of when the plant died.
A Viking answer for the coconut fibres of this date, while possible is tenuous at best. I would think you would even agree with that.
But we do have documentation that the Knights Templar were in the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct period, and they did trade with countries such as Egypt and of course Palestine, which did use coir and coconut fibres from India. It is also documented that the Grand Master of the order along with 60 knights and 160,000 florins of gold and other treasures left Cyprus in early 1307 at the request of the Pope for a meeting with him in France. It is a known that each Knight of the order had three squires in attendance and three of his own horses as well as one for his squire. They more than likely would have used coconut fibre for packing of cargo, and as having been in the Eastern Med. for some time, thus needing new rope would probably have acquired coir for this purpose. Is it a great leap to premise that when these ships disappeared from France later that same year some of them followed known Viking routes to North America.
Or is it easier to assume that Vikings through some trade more then two centuries before the actual dating of this material or more then three centuries after the demise of their trade routes brought it to North America, also I should add more then three centuries after their known presence in North America.
As I said, I don't discount this possibility, but I do believe the Templar angle works out better.

Or of course there is the premise of Aedis, that coconut fibre fell into the Indian Ocean and floated for many years on ocean currents until ending up on the coast of Oak Island.

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 8:43 pm 
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Quote:
In all of your references there is only one ambiguous dotted line showing any trade with the Eastern Mediterranean. The Norse did control the Volga trades routes (very early for our purposes) but the Volga only connects to the Caspian Sea, not the Eastern Med.
One source says the Vikings were quite active in the region of the Iberian Peninsula and the coast of North Africa, still not the Eastern Med.


North European peoples were active in the Eastern Med during the period that L'anse aux Meadow was settled.
This included Danes, Norse, Swedes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons i.e. Germanic/Viking peoples.

There are dozens of academic papers and primary sources on the presence of Germanic peoples in the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries in the Eastern Med.

Let's start with Popular Archaeologies article on the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul.
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/ju ... and-spolia

Quote:
When visiting Hagia Sophia today, the neglect due to the water damage and decay that exists in the building is apparent. You see the history of the area from pagan religions, to Christian dominance, to Islamic rule. You can even see graffiti from a Viking visitor (Image Below). Hagia Sophia is a testimony in its stones to its rich history and the diverse culture that dates back to Constantinople. It contains a rich history of diversity and the restorers are trying to maintain a balance that even the secular nation of Turkey is trying to uphold.

Go check out the photograph.

Next - This paper has a wealth of information on the Germanic peoples visiting Byzantium, as well as the trade that brought goods from the Middle East to Sweden:

http://www.academia.edu/3628861/Varangi ... _Byzantium

Quote:
Though in the majority in parts of Sweden, bottles, silk, coins, rings with arabic inscriptions, censers, balances and weights all originate within Islamicate borders extending to Bagdad dated to the late tenth century.


How about this by Egil Mikkelson of the University of Oslo's archaeology department:

http://www.academia.edu/4146868/Islam_a ... Viking_Age

This was the area covered by the Empire under Basil II 976CE to 1025CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_ ... 025-en.svg
As you can see this includes the Eastern Med. Where the Varangian guard were active.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 8:56 pm 
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Aedis wrote:
Quote:
In all of your references there is only one ambiguous dotted line showing any trade with the Eastern Mediterranean. The Norse did control the Volga trades routes (very early for our purposes) but the Volga only connects to the Caspian Sea, not the Eastern Med.
One source says the Vikings were quite active in the region of the Iberian Peninsula and the coast of North Africa, still not the Eastern Med.


North European peoples were active in the Eastern Med during the period that L'anse aux Meadow was settled.
This included Danes, Norse, Swedes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons i.e. Germanic/Viking peoples.

There are dozens of academic papers and primary sources on the presence of Germanic peoples in the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries in the Eastern Med.

Let's start with Popular Archaeologies article on the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul.
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/ju ... and-spolia

Quote:
When visiting Hagia Sophia today, the neglect due to the water damage and decay that exists in the building is apparent. You see the history of the area from pagan religions, to Christian dominance, to Islamic rule. You can even see graffiti from a Viking visitor (Image Below). Hagia Sophia is a testimony in its stones to its rich history and the diverse culture that dates back to Constantinople. It contains a rich history of diversity and the restorers are trying to maintain a balance that even the secular nation of Turkey is trying to uphold.

Go check out the photograph.

Next - This paper has a wealth of information on the Germanic peoples visiting Byzantium, as well as the trade that brought goods from the Middle East to Sweden:

http://www.academia.edu/3628861/Varangi ... _Byzantium

Quote:
Though in the majority in parts of Sweden, bottles, silk, coins, rings with arabic inscriptions, censers, balances and weights all originate within Islamicate borders extending to Bagdad dated to the late tenth century.


How about this by Egil Mikkelson of the University of Oslo's archaeology department:

http://www.academia.edu/4146868/Islam_a ... Viking_Age

This was the area covered by the Empire under Basil II 976CE to 1025CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_ ... 025-en.svg
As you can see this includes the Eastern Med. Where the Varangian guard were active.



Umm. are you saying that Germanic, and Scandinavians migrating to the area of the Byzantine Empire in the 9th, 10th and 11th centurys, accounts for Coconut fibres dated from between 1260 to 1400 on the shores of Nova Scotia?

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014 9:31 pm 
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Joined: 04 Aug 2014 2:51 pm
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wayward wrote:
Aedis wrote:
Quote:
In all of your references there is only one ambiguous dotted line showing any trade with the Eastern Mediterranean. The Norse did control the Volga trades routes (very early for our purposes) but the Volga only connects to the Caspian Sea, not the Eastern Med.
One source says the Vikings were quite active in the region of the Iberian Peninsula and the coast of North Africa, still not the Eastern Med.


North European peoples were active in the Eastern Med during the period that L'anse aux Meadow was settled.
This included Danes, Norse, Swedes, Normans and Anglo-Saxons i.e. Germanic/Viking peoples.

There are dozens of academic papers and primary sources on the presence of Germanic peoples in the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries in the Eastern Med.

Let's start with Popular Archaeologies article on the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul.
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/ju ... and-spolia

Quote:
When visiting Hagia Sophia today, the neglect due to the water damage and decay that exists in the building is apparent. You see the history of the area from pagan religions, to Christian dominance, to Islamic rule. You can even see graffiti from a Viking visitor (Image Below). Hagia Sophia is a testimony in its stones to its rich history and the diverse culture that dates back to Constantinople. It contains a rich history of diversity and the restorers are trying to maintain a balance that even the secular nation of Turkey is trying to uphold.

Go check out the photograph.

Next - This paper has a wealth of information on the Germanic peoples visiting Byzantium, as well as the trade that brought goods from the Middle East to Sweden:

http://www.academia.edu/3628861/Varangi ... _Byzantium

Quote:
Though in the majority in parts of Sweden, bottles, silk, coins, rings with arabic inscriptions, censers, balances and weights all originate within Islamicate borders extending to Bagdad dated to the late tenth century.


How about this by Egil Mikkelson of the University of Oslo's archaeology department:

http://www.academia.edu/4146868/Islam_a ... Viking_Age

This was the area covered by the Empire under Basil II 976CE to 1025CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_ ... 025-en.svg
As you can see this includes the Eastern Med. Where the Varangian guard were active.



Umm. are you saying that Germanic, and Scandinavians migrating to the area of the Byzantine Empire in the 9th, 10th and 11th centurys, accounts for Coconut fibres dated from between 1260 to 1400 on the shores of Nova Scotia?


No. I am responding to your comments where you quoted Crimson Ghost as you suggested his sources were weak with regards to showing that the Norse were active in the Eastern Med.
I was merely pointing out there is a wealth of evidence that the Vikings had contact with the Eastern Med.

With regards to the Coconut fibers. You have suggested these come from the Templar ships. You also suggested that the site at New Ross that Joan Hope Harris found was a Templar settlement.
However she said she had the artifacts (which no longer exist) examined by an archaeologist and C-14 tested, and they come from the Viking age.

So even if the Coir is from the period of the Templar's, the artifacts which unfortunately we can't get re-examined are not according to the only source we have for their existence.

So would you agree that these two sites might be completely unrelated?

Also, I'm interested to know. What do you think the Templar fleet of 18 ships at la Rochelle consisted of?


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2014 4:09 pm 
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wayward wrote:


In all of your references there is only one ambiguous dotted line showing any trade with the Eastern Mediterranean. The Norse did control the Volga trades routes (very early for our purposes) but the Volga only connects to the Caspian Sea, not the Eastern Med.
One source says the Vikings were quite active in the region of the Iberian Peninsula and the coast of North Africa, still not the Eastern Med.
And you are correct Ghost, the Vikings could have traded with somebody else for coir or coconut fibre, but as I mentioned it probably would have been too early for our 1260 to 1400 dating of when the plant died.
A Viking answer for the coconut fibres of this date, while possible is tenuous at best. I would think you would even agree with that.
But we do have documentation that the Knights Templar were in the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct period, and they did trade with countries such as Egypt and of course Palestine, which did use coir and coconut fibres from India. It is also documented that the Grand Master of the order along with 60 knights and 160,000 florins of gold and other treasures left Cyprus in early 1307 at the request of the Pope for a meeting with him in France. It is a known that each Knight of the order had three squires in attendance and three of his own horses as well as one for his squire. They more than likely would have used coconut fibre for packing of cargo, and as having been in the Eastern Med. for some time, thus needing new rope would probably have acquired coir for this purpose. Is it a great leap to premise that when these ships disappeared from France later that same year some of them followed known Viking routes to North America.
Or is it easier to assume that Vikings through some trade more then two centuries before the actual dating of this material or more then three centuries after the demise of their trade routes brought it to North America, also I should add more then three centuries after their known presence in North America.
As I said, I don't discount this possibility, but I do believe the Templar angle works out better.



Bill, I`m not trying to dismantle your theory. As I have said before, I find the Templar idea possible. But, I do try to cover all possible bases before jumping to any conclusions.


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2014 5:47 pm 
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Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 3058
Location: traverse city,michigan
Crimson_Ghost wrote:
wayward wrote:


In all of your references there is only one ambiguous dotted line showing any trade with the Eastern Mediterranean. The Norse did control the Volga trades routes (very early for our purposes) but the Volga only connects to the Caspian Sea, not the Eastern Med.
One source says the Vikings were quite active in the region of the Iberian Peninsula and the coast of North Africa, still not the Eastern Med.
And you are correct Ghost, the Vikings could have traded with somebody else for coir or coconut fibre, but as I mentioned it probably would have been too early for our 1260 to 1400 dating of when the plant died.
A Viking answer for the coconut fibres of this date, while possible is tenuous at best. I would think you would even agree with that.
But we do have documentation that the Knights Templar were in the Eastern Mediterranean during the correct period, and they did trade with countries such as Egypt and of course Palestine, which did use coir and coconut fibres from India. It is also documented that the Grand Master of the order along with 60 knights and 160,000 florins of gold and other treasures left Cyprus in early 1307 at the request of the Pope for a meeting with him in France. It is a known that each Knight of the order had three squires in attendance and three of his own horses as well as one for his squire. They more than likely would have used coconut fibre for packing of cargo, and as having been in the Eastern Med. for some time, thus needing new rope would probably have acquired coir for this purpose. Is it a great leap to premise that when these ships disappeared from France later that same year some of them followed known Viking routes to North America.
Or is it easier to assume that Vikings through some trade more then two centuries before the actual dating of this material or more then three centuries after the demise of their trade routes brought it to North America, also I should add more then three centuries after their known presence in North America.
As I said, I don't discount this possibility, but I do believe the Templar angle works out better.



Bill, I`m not trying to dismantle your theory. As I have said before, I find the Templar idea possible. But, I do try to cover all possible bases before jumping to any conclusions.



I know that Ghost, and I am trying to answer your questions about my premise.

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