Arcadia Discussion Zone

Forums dedicated to history's mysteries, Rennes-le-Château and beyond…

Read the Arcadia Forum House Rules

It is currently 12 Dec 2017 4:21 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 1:10 am 
Offline
Initiate

Joined: 08 Jul 2007 2:30 am
Posts: 36
Location: New Zealand
I've been reading this forum for a number of years but have not posted for some time.My reason for posting now is to seek some help regarding a bearing I came across during my re
search on Oak Island concentrating on the geometry aspect.
I won't go into detail about how I found the bearing,which is 286d 37m - 73d 23m reading the compass rose in an anti-clockwise direction,and that bearing being from Oak Island.
Being a complete non starter at navigation,and noting that there are a few very clued up people on the forum,would someone kindly tell me where the destination of that bearing is at a distance of 4679km,giving the co-ordinates of the position.
Thankyou
Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 2:00 am 
Offline
High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 3058
Location: traverse city,michigan
Dave Wood wrote:
I've been reading this forum for a number of years but have not posted for some time.My reason for posting now is to seek some help regarding a bearing I came across during my re
search on Oak Island concentrating on the geometry aspect.
I won't go into detail about how I found the bearing,which is 286d 37m - 73d 23m reading the compass rose in an anti-clockwise direction,and that bearing being from Oak Island.
Being a complete non starter at navigation,and noting that there are a few very clued up people on the forum,would someone kindly tell me where the destination of that bearing is at a distance of 4679km,giving the co-ordinates of the position.
Thankyou
Dave


not completely sure what you are asking Dave, but a bearing is a compass heading. You are discribing two completely different headings, and also not sure what you are asking in reading the compass in an anti clockwise direction, as it reads 360 degrees around the rose clockwise. If you are saying read it backwards from 0 or also 360 (the same direction) your 286 would become 74 degrees less another 23 minutes as there are 60 minutes in a degree. There is also the question of magnetic north and true north, which in Nova Scotia can be as much as an 18 degree difference (quite a lot). As navigation is a serious hobby of mine, I would only be too happy to help. If you wish you can PM me, and I am on the O.I. Forum as well.

_________________
on the trail of the grail


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 9:22 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 11284
Location: France
Head off in West N/W direction and keep on going for 4679km and don't forget about the curvature of the earth.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 12:32 pm 
Offline
High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 3058
Location: traverse city,michigan
Sheila wrote:
Head off in West N/W direction and keep on going for 4679km and don't forget about the curvature of the earth.



sounds simple enough, but with 17-18 degrees between true north and magnetic north at your starting point(Oak Island) 73 and a half degrees would either put you in London or close to La Rochelle. Aircraft charts use magnetic north and spell out the difference (declination) at each location. Dave is looking for a 16th century answer, which would probably also take the curvature (great circle route) of the earth out of the question. If this is what he is looking for a flat map would be required.

_________________
on the trail of the grail


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 1:03 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 11284
Location: France
i'm not following you, the 73° 23' has nothing to do with it...the bearing is 286° 37' ...which as i said is in a W N/W direction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 1:13 pm 
Offline
High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 3058
Location: traverse city,michigan
Sheila wrote:
i'm not following you, the 73° 23' has nothing to do with it...the bearing is 286° 37' ...which as i said is in a W N/W direction.



you are correct Sheila, but Dave told me in a PM that he believes this has something to with a connection between O.I. and London, which I believe means he is thinking about the other figure in his question, the 73.5 degrees (more or less) even though he says reading counter clockwise on the compass. I do think I need more information and will PM him again.
But the declination still applies as does the flat earth map.

_________________
on the trail of the grail


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 2:01 pm 
Offline
Initiate

Joined: 08 Jul 2007 2:30 am
Posts: 36
Location: New Zealand
Sorry if I've been confusing people on this,but that is the way the figure came out in the calculation.The 73d 23m is the actual heading.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2010 6:46 pm 
Offline
High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 3058
Location: traverse city,michigan
Dave Wood wrote:
Sorry if I've been confusing people on this,but that is the way the figure came out in the calculation.The 73d 23m is the actual heading.

Dave



a starting magnetic heading of 73degrees and 23min. from the center of Oak Island using the great circle will take you to the center of York, UK at a distance of 4554.73 kilometers.

the same heading from true north also using the great circle will take you to the southern border region of France at a distance of approx. 4900 kilometers to the shore.

a starting heading of 75degrees magnetic from OI will take you to London using, again the great circle.

I deleted your pm by mistake this morning, so if you will send your exact destination location again, I will recheck these and get back to you.

the problem with beginning a great circle route using a compass is that going east in the northern hemispere you would have to continue adjusting your heading to the right, and traveling west would take a continuing adjustment to the left. in other words you wouldn't be on your starting heading very long.

a flat map would of course change everything, and I will check that also.

I am very interested in where you got these numbers.---Bill

_________________
on the trail of the grail


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2010 4:10 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 3:29 am
Posts: 8934
Location: Texas
I got a question for you guys
Magnetic Rose compass
Image

A circle graduated in degrees, clockwise from 0° at the reference direction to 360° and sometimes also in compass points. Compass roses are placed at convenient locations on the Mercator chart to facilitate measurement of direction. The compass rose can be used by the mariner to help lay out a course with a protractor.

Compass roses on NOAA charts show two graduated scales. One is referenced to True North, while the other is referenced to Magnetic North. Gyro compasses used aboard vessels yield “True” headings, while magnetic compasses will yield magnetic headings. If a magnetic compass is in use, mariners must be able to convert back and forth between true and magnetic headings. They accomplish this by either adding or subtracting the magnetic variation—which is the angle between magnetic and geographic meridians.

Magnetic variation is given in degrees and minutes, with an easterly or westerly component. If converting from magnetic headings to true headings, a west variation is added to the magnetic to obtain true. An easterly variation would be subtracted.

can someone explain the variation to me?

Image

By the late sixteenth century, the mariner's compass had evolved into an instrument not very different from the compass of today. The case in which the compass itself is housed was made of wood or ivory in the early days. After that, brass came into use since it does not affect the magnetic needle.

The Pole Star (Polaris) served as the seaman's lodestar (or star that shows the way). Therefore the magnetic stone which was used to magnetize the compass needle was called a lodestone. The magnetic, direction-finding property of the lodestone had been discovered in China as early as the twelfth century.

Is this the variation
Solid lines on the rose are oriented to geographic, or true north. With this arrangement, unless the navigator used extreme caution it would be easy to confuse the two, and plot an erroneous course. Present-day charts reduce this problem by using two concentric rings; the outer ring for plotting by geographic coordinates, and an inner ring for plotting with the magnetic compass.

I believe I saw something like this at Rosslyn

_________________
Everything is Connected and there are no
coincidences


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2010 11:58 am 
Offline
High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 3058
Location: traverse city,michigan
[quote="lovuian"]I got a question for you guys
Magnetic Rose compass
Image

A circle graduated in degrees, clockwise from 0° at the reference direction to 360° and sometimes also in compass points. Compass roses are placed at convenient locations on the Mercator chart to facilitate measurement of direction. The compass rose can be used by the mariner to help lay out a course with a protractor.

Compass roses on NOAA charts show two graduated scales. One is referenced to True North, while the other is referenced to Magnetic North. Gyro compasses used aboard vessels yield “True” headings, while magnetic compasses will yield magnetic headings. If a magnetic compass is in use, mariners must be able to convert back and forth between true and magnetic headings. They accomplish this by either adding or subtracting the magnetic variation—which is the angle between magnetic and geographic meridians.

Magnetic variation is given in degrees and minutes, with an easterly or westerly component. If converting from magnetic headings to true headings, a west variation is added to the magnetic to obtain true. An easterly variation would be subtracted.

can someone explain the variation to me?


yes I can Lov. The position of the magnetic north pole is located in a direction towards the american midwest from the actual north pole, in far northern canada. The north pole itself is far north of this location, at the point where the earth is spinning on its axis, pointed more or less in the direction of the north star. With a magnetic compass pointing at magnetic north instead of true north there could be quite a difference of opinion on a persons actual location or direction of travel. If a flier were to use his magnetic compass in the american midwest there would be very little or no magnetic variation, as the two norths are pretty much lined up, but in Nova Scotia (an area I am familar with) this same pilot would have to add as much as 18 degrees to his heading. 18 degrees is a lot of variation. With between 3 to 5 degrees where I am in Michigan I never worried about it much (in good weather), as with a 5 degree error you would more then likely be close enough to your destination to see it, but with 18 degrees of error a pilot could be in the wrong state or province at the end of his trip. With a vessel at sea there are no landmarks to check position from time to time (at least there didn't use to be) so you can easily see how far off position a navigator could get if he didn't take this into account. Of course even early navigators knew of this problem, as Champlain always entered this into his log when he noted latitude. To get this variation he would check his magnetic compass against the north star. I may have discribed this the long way around, but I am still only on my first cup of coffee (6:55 here).---Bill

_________________
on the trail of the grail


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2010 2:38 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 3:29 am
Posts: 8934
Location: Texas
A compass is very interesting
when I was at Rosslyn
I had a chance to climb up there on the roof tops
you get a different point of view up there

This is the east window inside Rosslyn Chapel
Image

this is the viewer looking in the inside
but this is the view from the outside on the roof
Image
copyrighted to me
it looks like a compass...I'm thinking its a magnetic Rose compass
it is also next to the Beehive found


I guess if you were thought to be a great sailor then being respectful of the compass that got you there
would be put in your chapel
the East window ...the sun rises
1869
THE EAST WINDOW Two lights.
Representation of the Resurrection: the three
women at the sepulchre, where two angels are
sitting, one with a scroll
" He is not here, but
is risen." Erected
" To the Glory of God In
most affectionate remembrance of his only sister,
Harriet Elizabeth St. Clair, daughter of James
Alexander, third Earl of Rosslyn, and wife of
George Herbert, Count Munster of Derneburg
in Hanover. This window was entirely restored
and filled with stained glass, November, 1869, by
Francis Robert, fourth Earl of Rosslyn,

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/castles/05StainedGlassWindowsAndContemporaryHistory.pdf

I believe some Sinclairs were pilots
I will say Dave that your numbers 37 appeal to me
food for thought

_________________
Everything is Connected and there are no
coincidences


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2010 7:29 am 
Offline
Initiate

Joined: 08 Jul 2007 2:30 am
Posts: 36
Location: New Zealand
Iovuian,
The 23 and 37degs are what the Welling triangle was set at to True North,23 to the left and 37 to the right.Actually they were to the minute and those figures are to the nearest degree.Hope the 23 appeals too.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bearings
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2010 7:42 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 3:29 am
Posts: 8934
Location: Texas
Jules Verne wrote a story called
L'Île mystérieuse
Here is the illustration... give it a look see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ile_Mysterieuse_02.jpg

It has a secret ...and it was used by pirates

Just interesting similar idea

_________________
Everything is Connected and there are no
coincidences


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group