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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2007 4:48 pm 
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Dan Green author of the 'The Lincoln Da Vinci Code' and 'The Lincoln Da Vinci Code and the mystery of Rennes-le-chateau' has offered up a solution to the mystery of the Templars head worship and the puzzling panel painting at Templecombe, Somerset. Continuing his research concerning Lincoln cathedral, Green has uncovered the possibilty that the head was in fact an automaton and that the Templecombe painting is a clue. This seems less unlikely as one might think when we learn that automaton heads were around before the 11th century! To read his research and latest feature in full, visit;
http://farshores.org/a07tq.htm


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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2007 4:30 pm 
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Ahoy, Jolly Roger!
Clearly, not one for you. Rather, the work is there for those who do and will always believe that the Templars harboured a secretive head. Me, I'm not here to argue with anybody - life is too short and arguing is how world wars start. I don't believe that the Templars could possibly have fought in the Crusades in the Holy Land wearing those massive suits of armour...they'd have melted in the temperature...but people tell me they did.
Belief is in the 'why?' of the beholder.
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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2007 5:21 pm 
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A very respectful and informative reply, R. As a scientifically minded person myself, it would be unthinkable for me not to include proven facts into any of my interest into research. I just wonder, though, what other facts there may be out there awaiting discovery of proof, that could possibly one day overturn those in current acceptance, and therefore continue my Trail. Unearthing these, if any, would be finding the real hidden or lost treasures.


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PostPosted: 21 Sep 2007 5:00 am 
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Roger wrote:
It really isn't about my opinion, and whether "it's one for me" or not. It's about proven facts. The only "head" associated with the Order in any way, shape or form, was a very Catholic reliquary.


Are you saying that the head called CAPUT 58m didn't exist or are you saying that they simply didn't worship it?

The m is actually the sign for VirgoImage

Baphomet when using the Hebrew alphabet (and only the Hebrew alphabet) translates when using the ATBASH cypher into Sophia which is the Greek for Wisdom.

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PostPosted: 21 Sep 2007 8:12 pm 
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.....I agree to most of the above....but what category would harbouring an automaton head come under ?


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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2007 5:31 am 
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Roger wrote:
Caput LVIII m was a very catholic reliquary, brought to the inquisitors by Paris Temple administrator Guillaume Pidoie, and recognised as such by the inquisitors. The interpretation of the "m" as the sign for Virgo, in this context, is a later invention of people desperately attempting to prove some hidden hermetic tradition within the Order. (an exercise similar to, say... attempting to use numerology to "interpret" a National Archives file number)

Similarly, erudite etymological and hallucinatory explanations of "bafomet", attempting to connect the word with gnostic greek schools, or islamic sects, is well within the transparent "neo-templar" movement's attempts to rope the Order into the sphere of more contemporary esoteric preoccupations that have absolutely nothing to do with the Order or the known facts.

In reality, there was never a "bafomet", there was, instead, a torture-induced confession (the torture interrogations were conducted by the abysmally ignorant henchmen of the King, not by the inquisitors) regarding worship of idols, and - upon further "prompting" the mention of a "bafometique" head.

Quote:
un frère occitan de Montpezat, Gaucerant, avoue avoir adoré une "image bafométique", ce qui est une déformation de "Mahomettique" (voir le poeme de 1265, Ira et Dolor, E Bafomet obra de son goder, "Et Mahomet fait briller sa puissance").


In other words, it's simply an occitan word for Mohammed, from an occitan poem, well-known at the time. And that is the ONLY mention anywhere, at any time, of "bafometique" (note, not even "bafomet" as in the name of the head) throughout the prosecution of the Order. But the King's men didn't know this, nor did they know islam strictly forbids such things. Once this testimony was presented to the inquisitors, and once an inventory was made finding no such heads in any of the Order's facilities, the inquisitors wisely dropped that particular item. Such wisdom, of course, is sorely lacking amongst our most erudite and addle-pated modern esoterists, hence the over-abundance of very savant writings, studies and interpretations of/on something that never existed.

You will find, assuming some integrity and competence, that - should you be inclined to do the actual honest research - this same scenario of willful misinterpretation of history, of Templar symbology, of any number of other items attempting to tie the Order into a long tradition of hermetic practices and other sundry esoteric preoccupations, is prevalent everywhere and based on nothing more than the desperate desire to add a little bit of "Templar cachet" to one's particular sect or sub-masonic obedience. As a rule of thumb, I can guarantee you that, if someone waves the Templars at you in support of any alchemical, esoteric, hermetic argument or lineage, they are a charlatan, or a dolt, or brainwashed beyond salvation.


Baphomet translates as Sophia using the Atbash Cypher and the Hebrew alphabet. Sorry but it does.

Try it

This FACT cannot be a chance occurence

Mahometique and Baphomet are two different words and any link is tenuous to the point of wishful thinking.

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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2007 3:00 pm 
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..maybe Caput 58m is engraved on the automaton head..?


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2007 4:04 am 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
Baphomet translates as Sophia using the Atbash Cypher and the Hebrew alphabet. Sorry but it does.
Try it
This FACT cannot be a chance occurence
Mahometique and Baphomet are two different words and any link is tenuous to the point of wishful thinking.


This FACT is EXACTLY that, a purely chance occurrence (with much twisted assistance from the arbitrary implication of codes and Hebrew, completely out of context).

The very word "bafomet" (the baphomet spelling is a later invention) comes from the Occitan, as a deformation of "mahomet". The source material proves it. The inquisition papers demonstrate the fallacy of the later far=fetched interpretations of the incident. I do believe the "wishful thinking" is exclusively yours, in this particular matter.

cj, what automaton head??????


Your source material is as much speculation as you are making. You are piling speculation on top of speculation.

However you cannot deny that the Hebrew rendering of Baphomet becomes Sophia and for you to declare this merely a chance occurence is quite frankly suspicious and I look for other motives as to why you protest too much over this.

In complete contrast from your speculation that Baphomet being a corruption of Mahomet we of course also have the writings of Eliphas Levi from his book Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie. Levi called his image of an androgynous Devil “the Baphomet of Mendes”. Baphomet is also alluded to in the Tarot of Marseilles which was written by Papus and here we have a link back to Carcassonne and to Henri Boudet.

Forgive me but I rather suspect we have a "Diverting a discourse" attempt from you here and an attempt to divert any serious study away from the Leo Taxil controversy.

This practice of yours of calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a dolt doesn't work here and certainly by me is looked upon as an indication that the person saying these things is forcibly trying to push a weak argument.

By the way your passage in French:

Quote:
un frère occitan de Montpezat, Gaucerant, avoue avoir adoré une "image bafométique", ce qui est une déformation de "Mahomettique" (voir le poeme de 1265, Ira et Dolor, E Bafomet obra de son goder, "Et Mahomet fait briller sa puissance").


Speaks of Bafomet and Mahomet as two different entities. Nice try but no banana

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Last edited by roscoe on 23 Sep 2007 4:33 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2007 4:06 am 
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cj wrote:
..maybe Caput 58m is engraved on the automaton head..?


CAPUT 58m (m being a sign for Virgo) looks like an astrology term.

CAPUT being Caput Serpens 58 degrees from Virgo.

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PostPosted: 24 Sep 2007 4:11 am 
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That's an awful lot of waffle. You protest too much methinks.

Your passage in French is speculation and after speaking of Bafomet finishes with the phrase:

"And Mahomet makes its power shine"

In other words two different entities.

I can't make out if this is wishful thinking by yourself or you are trying to play this down for some kind of agenda you're pushing.

Baphomet is Sophia and this is undeniable and the bottom line is that if people whose motives we are trying to study think that Baphmet is the androgynous image of the Devil, then for the purposes of research if nothing else that's what it is.

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PostPosted: 25 Sep 2007 2:05 am 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
Your passage in French is speculation and after speaking of Bafomet finishes with the phrase:

"And Mahomet makes its power shine"

In other words two different entities.


E Bafomet obra de son goder ---> Translation: Et Mahomet fait briller sa puissance. (From the Occitan poem: "Ira et dolor" dated 1265.)

No speculation, no two entities, merely a translation. I don't post this for those beyond redemption, but merely to aid those who might be similarly reading-challenged, and come by it honestly. Btw, this is easily researched and verified by anyone willing to challenge their preconceived notions.


Stop using someone's speculation as the definative truth, it is far less significant than that of Papus and Eliphas Levi.

And don't forget Baphomet translates to Sophia and I notice how you continually skip around this undeniable fact.

Are you going to argue with Helena Blavatsky?

Quote:
from Greek baphe "immersion" + metis "wisdom"] "A medieval mystic term usually identified with the goat of Mendes. The Templars of Malta were accused of worshiping Baphomet as an idol. Baphomat signifies a baptism in wisdom or initiation, but became degraded and misunderstood when the keys to its real meaning were lost." The symbol of the Baphomet is related to Arcanum 15: Passion, as explained in The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah. The term "baphomet" hides a message when read backwards: Tem-o-h-p-ab, which is the symbol of the Latin words Templi ommun hominum pacis abbas, which means "The Father of the temple of universal peace for men." See Typhon.


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How little the philosophy of the old secret doctrine was understood, is illustrated in the atrocious persecutions of the Templars by the Church, and in the accusation of their worshipping the Devil under the shape of the goat -- Baphomet! Without going into the old Masonic mysteries, there is not a Mason -- of those we mean who do know something -- but has an idea of the true relation that Baphomet bore to Azaze, the scapegoat of the wilderness,***** whose character and meaning are entirely perverted in the Christian translations. "This terrible and venerable name of God," says Lanci,* librarian to the Vatican, "through the pen of biblical glossers, has been a devil, a mountain, a wilderness, and a he-goat." In Mackenzie's Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia, the author very correctly remarks that "this word should be divided into Azaz and El," for "it signifies God of Victory, but is here used in the sense of author of Death, in contrast to Jehovah, the author of Life; the latter received a dead goat as an offering."** The Hindu Trinity is composed of three personages, which are convertible into one. The Trimurti is one, and in its abstraction indivisible, and yet we see a metaphysical division taking place from the first, and while Brahma, though collectively representing the three, remains behind the scenes, Vishnu is the Life-Giver, the Creator, and the Preserver, and Siva is the Destroyer, and the Death-giving deity. "Death to the Life-Giver, life to the Death-dealer. The symbolical antithesis is grand and beautiful," says Gliddon.*** "Deus est Daemon inversus" of the kabalists now becomes clear. It is but the intense and cruel desire to crush out the last vestige of the old philosophies by perverting their meaning, for fear that their own dogmas should not be rightly fathered on them, which impels the Catholic Church to carry on such a systematic persecution in regard to Gnostics, Kabalists, and even the comparatively innocent Masons.



These are the words of the world's number one occultist - Helena Blavatsky.

This is easily researched and verified by anyone willing to challenge their preconceived notions.

You ignore Papus, Eliphas Levi and Helena Blavatsky no less and latch onto some obscure quote that doesn't even say that Mahomet is Baphomet.

What's your game?

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2007 1:58 am 
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Roger wrote:
In order to begin to understand the RLC affair, one must instead turn to the religious and general history of the region, and have a modicum of theological knowledge.


Yes we are not concerned with definitive truth we are concerned with what people BELIEVED to be the truth.

If Paul Smith accused me of having a modicum of common sense I'd pack the whole thing in. That would be like being told I'm an impressive liar.

I was never impressed by people writing long postings to simply say 'We disagree'. Please don't over do it. You protest too much, there's obviously something gnawing at you here.

Levi, Blavatsky and Papus had/have massive followings, Papus even had the Romanovs believing everything he said.

Sauniere had his own agenda. I don't have to believe any of them but I do have to believe that they believed and that other people believed them implicitly.

Bottom line.

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2010 7:31 am 
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The Templecombe Head (lest we forget)

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It was Bishop Odo’s descendent, Serlo Fitz Odo who granted ‘the combe’ to the Knights Templar in 1185 A.D. Not much is known about the activities of any of the Templar preceptories apart from the obvious admitting new members, training of knights, the running of administration in local commerce, mostly the farming of livestock to raise funds. The trade and supply of goods, around the preceptory was done for over 120 years. In 1307 the Pope terminated the order of the Knights Templar, and most of their property including Templecombe preceptory was given to another order of knights called the Hospitallers.


In 1383 the Knights Hospitallers made an inventory of the land owned by the Templecombe preceptory 368 acres of land had belonged to the Templars here. The Hospitallers turned the preceptory into a commandery and they held the property until 1540 when Henry VIII dissolved all the monasteries. Henry VIII awarded Templecombe to William Sherrington who in turn, sold it to Richard Duke Esq. Richard Duke pulled down the Hospitallers commandery (which had incorporated the Templars preceptory) and used all the stone to create a substantial manor house. Nothing now survives in Templecombe of the Knights Templar, apart from the place name and possibly the Templecombe Head.

it is impossible to know who painted the head, or who owned it, or who hid it away and concealed it or why; there are many ideas but no evidence, as yet. It is also impossible to say who the head is meant to represent; Jesus? John the Baptist? Nobody knows for sure. Assuming that it has always been at Templecombe then the carbon dating of 1280 A.D. suggests that it belonged to the Knights Templar, as Templecombe belonged to them at the time it was painted. This is tantalizing to Templar scholars because during the Trial of the Templars many were accused of ‘worshipping a head’ (of uncertain identity.) Could the Templecombe Head be a representation of the head that they were accused of worshipping?


Many people think it to be a portrait of Jesus (now that it hangs in the local church it only helps to reinforce this idea) yet there is no halo, crown of thorns, or inscription to say that it is Jesus and it was not found in a church, chapel or temple. It has no body and so many people think that it depicts the severed head of John the Baptist (certainly, the Templars were known to of held the Baptist in very high regard.) Much about the Templar mystery suggests a pagan influence to their devotions so the ‘Head’ they worshipped could be the decapitated oracular head of Bran the Blessed (of British tradition) or even Mirmir’s head (of Norse tradition) indeed, the ‘Cult of the Head’ is ancient and comes from many cultural origins, any of which the Knights Templar may have been influenced by. The Templars are even believed by some to have been the guardians of the Holy Grail and in an old Welsh romance the grail is described as ‘a head swimming in blood!’


And speaking of the head of John the Baptist

Quote:
At the same time recent speculation had linked the head, at least tentatively, with the severed head of John the Baptist; and certain writers have suggested that the Templars were “infected’ with the johannite or Mandaean heresy which denounced Jesus as a ‘false prophet’ and acknowledged John as the true Messiah. In the course of their activities in the Middle East the Templars undoubtedly established contact with johannite sects, and the possibility of Johannite tendencies in the Order is not altogether unlikely. But one cannot say that such tendencies obtained for the Order as a whole, nor that they were a matter of official policy.
During the interrogations following the arrests in 1307, a head also figured in two other connections. According to the Inquisition records, among the confiscated goods of the Paris preceptory a reliquary in the shape of a woman’s head was found. It was hinged on top, and contained what appeared to have been relics of a peculiar kind. It is described as follows:

a great head of gilded silver, most beautiful, and constituting the image of a woman. Inside were two head bones wrapped in a cloth of white linen, with another red cloth around it. A label was attached, on which was written the legend CAPUT LVIIIm. The bones inside were those of a rather small woman.


A curious relic especially for a rigidly monastic, military institution like the Templars. Yet a knight under interrogation, when confronted with this feminine head, declared it had no relation to the bearded male head used in the Order’s rituals. Caput LVIIIm -“Head 58m’ remains a baffling enigma. But it is worth noting that the ‘m’ may not be an ‘m’ at all, but Image, the astrological symbol for Virgo .

The head figures again in another mysterious story traditionally linked with the Templars. It is worth quoting in one of its several variants:

A great lady of Maraclea was loved by a Templar, a Lord of Sidon; but she died in her youth, and on the night of her burial, this wicked lover crept to the grave, dug up her body and violated it. Then a voice from the void bade him return in nine months time for he would find a son. He obeyed the injunction and at the appointed time he opened the grave again and found a head on the leg bones of the skeleton (skull and crossbones). The same voice bade him’ guard it well, for it would be the giver of all good things’, and so he carried it away with him. It became his protecting genius, and he was able to defeat his enemies by merely showing them the magic head. In due course, it passed into the possession of the Order .
This grisly narrative can be traced at least as far back as one Walter Map, writing in the late twelfth century. But neither he nor another writer, who recounts the same tale nearly a century later, specifies that the necrophiliac rapist was a Templar. Nevertheless, by 1307 the story had become closely associated with the Order. It is mentioned repeatedly in the Inquisition’s records, and at least two knights under interrogation confessed their familiarity with it. In subsequent accounts, like the one quoted above, the rapist himself is identified as a Templar, and he remains so in the versions preserved by Freemasonry - which adopted the skull and crossbones, and often employed it as a device on tombstones.

Holy Blood Holy Grail pp 71

Walter Map wrote the Lancelot Grail

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PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 8:13 pm 
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Could the Templecombe Panel be a representation of the face of Christ as depicted on the Shroud?This is a theory mentioned in Colin Wilson's book on the Shroud.Also, didn't Geoffery de Charney belong to the Knights Templar and didn't his family hold the shroud for quite some time? Also, did the Templars in ERngland ,Germany and elsewhere also mention a head in any trials?
As far as head Caput LVIIM goes,which is mentioned in the latest addition of Holy Blood,Holy Grail and also in The Holy Grail,Legend of the Western World by Franjo Terhart,Parragon Books,could Caput mean Capet, as in the Capetain Rulers
and LVIIM be a year?
Has anyone done a DNA test of the bones to determine age,sex,ethnic group? Do we know in what period that the reliquary that holds the bones was made?Could Caput be maybe the bones of some female saint of the Capetian royal house?
Could the Templars have believed the bones to be that of Mary Magdalene or some other saint associated with Jesus and his family?That might explain why they would have such a relic. Did they have any women patron saints beside Our Lady?
The other head,"Baphomet" could they have believed it to be that of John the Baptist?Several places claim to have it.
Was there any traffic in mummies back in those days? Is it possible some enterprising soul given them the head of a mummy and said it was the Baptist's?
On an interesting side note, The Texas Handbook Online lists the town of Mahomet,Texas in Burnet County,and says that it was named for Mahomet,Illinois. There is also a Mecca ,Texas too if I recall.


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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 6:50 am 
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Roger wrote:
The only "head" associated with the Order in any way, shape or form, was a very Catholic reliquary.


Not quite correct, Roger. There were two heads and both were definitely Catholic.

On Cyprus John of Villa, the Draper of the Order, testified the Templars had the head of St. Euphemia.

Brother William of Arreblay said he's seen a silver head in the Temple in Paris and had been told it was a relic of one of Ursula's 11,000 companions. He told the Papal Commission that, while he was in prison, he'd heard that the statue had a second face in back, the horrifying face of a bearded man (which he's never personally seen). The court ordered William Pidoye, the royal custodian of the goods of the Temple, to search the Temple for any similar item. After several weeks he located:

"a certain large beautiful silver-gilt head, shaped like that of a woman. within which were the bones of a single head, and stitched in a certain white linen cloth, red muslin having been placed over it and there was sewn in there a certain document on which was written caput LVIIIm and the bones were considered as similar to the bones of the head of a small woman and it was said by some that it was the head of one of the eleven thousand virgins."

Compare this description with these Reliquary busts of Ursula's virgins:

ImageImageImage

William denied Caput LVIIIm was the object he'd seen on the Temple's altar. The Papal commission apparently didn't see anything odd, idolatrous or heretical about the head and it is never mentioned again in the transcripts.

Fake Ursuline Companion relics were a cottage industry in Cologne. Entrepreneurs would raid the local cemetery for bones to sell to the faithful (according to the Catholic Encylopedia):

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15225d.htm

(Could LVIIIm be a price tag? 58 marks?)

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 8:07 am 
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roscoe wrote:
A great lady of Maraclea was loved by a Templar, a Lord of Sidon; but she died in her youth, and on the night of her burial, this wicked lover crept to the grave, dug up her body and violated it. Then a voice from the void bade him return in nine months time for he would find a son. He obeyed the injunction and at the appointed time he opened the grave again and found a head on the leg bones of the skeleton The same voice bade him’ guard it well, for it would be the giver of all good things’, and so he carried it away with him. It became his protecting genius, and he was able to defeat his enemies by merely showing them the magic head. In due course, it passed into the possession of the Order .


This version of the story is a 20th Century concoction. It first appears in Freemasonry and the Ancient Gods by J.S.M. Ward (1921). It is based in part on the testimony of Antonio Sicci, a notary for the Paris Commission who had worked for the Templars in Syria and of a Templar named Hughes de Faure. Before that Walter Map, Gervase of Tilbury and Roger of Hoveden had written variants of the tale in which the necorphiliac protagonist has sex with a corpse, receives an enchanted head that turns his enemies to stone. Ultimately the malefactor is turned to stone and the head ends up in the Gulf of Satalia where it rolls around causing a deadly whirlpool.

in 1310 Sicci testified that a Lord of Sidon had loved a noble maiden of Armenia.

Antonio Sicci wrote:
“...She died and, like Periander of Corinth, on the sight of her burial he opened her tomb and gratified his passion. A mysterious voice said “Return in nine months and you will find a head, your son!”


He goes on to say that another Count of Sidon named Julian joined the Templars and brought the head into the Order's possession.

A Templar who'd lived in Sidon said he'd heard one of Julian's ancestors had abused a corpse but claimed to know nothing about a head.

Another Templar, Hughes de Faure said he'd heard this story:

Hughes de Faure wrote:
A certain noble had deeply loved a certain damsel of the Castle of Maraclea in the County of Tripoli and since he could not have her in her lifetime, when he heard that she was dead he caused her to be exhumed and had intercourse with her. Afterwards he cut off the head for himself and a certain voice rang out that he should take good care of the said head since whoever saw the head would be totally destroyed and routed.


Hughes goes on to describe how the head was used to terrify the Byzantine "Greeks" until the protagonist's former nurse peeked into the chest in which the head was hidden and caused a storm which sank the ship in which both were sailing. Faure denied that the head had come into the Order's possession.

Another Templar, Guillaume Avril, testified that he'd heard about a monstrous head that caused storms but hadn't heard the story about the nobleman and the corpse.

Note : (Just in case it ever comes up) Maraclea was not in Armenia and there would be no reason to assume that a damsel from Maraclea would be Armenian.

It should also be noted that there is no contemporary description of the Templars ever using the skull and crossbones as an emblem.

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Last edited by Father Silence on 09 Dec 2010 8:30 am, edited 4 times in total.

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roscoe wrote:
Are you going to argue with Helena Blavatsky?


No, I'm just going to laugh out loud every time you mention her name.

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 3:07 pm 
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Thanks Father Silence. I thought they might have had other saints relics,since that was quite common and as you say there was a brisk trade in them in the past.You can find on the internet the Shrine of the Holy Relics which is in MariaStein, Ohio.The collection of relics belongs to the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood of Jesus.It lists the saints, and has photos of some of the relics.

The Sidon story sounds like it might have been based on an actual event.I believe King Pedro of Portugal kept the mummified remains of his wife Inez de Castro on the throne, and Juana La Loca, Catherine of Aragon's sister traveled around with the corpse of her dead hubby Phillip around Spain.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2011 10:18 am 
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What's my game? Well, despite what Paul Smith calls my "modicum of common sense", I do keep an open mind (an exercise probably too taxing for that person) at least until I can separate the wheat from the chaff, and eliminate "mysteries" that never existed. The entire Rennes-le-Chateau affair is replete with insertions of completely beside-the-point inventions and exploitative nonsense (the whole Plantard exercise, for instance). There is a sort of "mystery" in the RLC story, but it turns out to be a relatively prosaic, if historically fascinating, matter of Church history in that particular region (as well as others in France and Northern Italy), and there is no connexion whatsoever to any esoteric or hermetic tradition. In order to begin to understand the RLC affair, one must instead turn to the religious and general history of the region, and have a modicum of theological knowledge. I believe that the solution will soon be known to all, even though it will never be accepted by any adherents to various sects, whether Rosicrucian or other.[/quote]

Roger - why do you feel that when the RLC affair unfolds that it won't be accepted ?

Personally, for me, the Cathars held the knowledge.

Regards.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2011 7:10 am 
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Roger wrote:
Chris Foster wrote:
What's my game? Well, despite what Paul Smith calls my "modicum of common sense", I do keep an open mind (an exercise probably too taxing for that person) at least until I can separate the wheat from the chaff, and eliminate "mysteries" that never existed. The entire Rennes-le-Chateau affair is replete with insertions of completely beside-the-point inventions and exploitative nonsense (the whole Plantard exercise, for instance). There is a sort of "mystery" in the RLC story, but it turns out to be a relatively prosaic, if historically fascinating, matter of Church history in that particular region (as well as others in France and Northern Italy), and there is no connexion whatsoever to any esoteric or hermetic tradition. In order to begin to understand the RLC affair, one must instead turn to the religious and general history of the region, and have a modicum of theological knowledge. I believe that the solution will soon be known to all, even though it will never be accepted by any adherents to various sects, whether Rosicrucian or other.

Roger - why do you feel that when the RLC affair unfolds that it won't be accepted ?

Personally, for me, the Cathars held the knowledge.

Regards.



Well the notion that the "Cathars held the knowledge" is a testament to the power of fantasy over fact and to the phenomenal success of the complete Cathar reinvention (and rehabilitation) over the last century and a half.



Well they warranted an all out campaign of murder and genocide by the Holy Roman Church. If the Church that you defend so vigorously hadn't ruthlessly and bloodily exterminated them (for why? because they indulged in fantasy?) then they wouldn't have to be reinvented would they?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2011 10:38 am 
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High King
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Roger wrote:
Well the notion that the "Cathars held the knowledge" is a testament to the power of fantasy over fact and to the phenomenal success of the complete Cathar reinvention (and rehabilitation) over the last century and a half.

Seconded. Well put.
These romantic cathars-templars-grail-secret-fantasies might be a heritage of the "Grand Tour", who knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2011 12:29 pm 
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Eginolf wrote:
Roger wrote:
Well the notion that the "Cathars held the knowledge" is a testament to the power of fantasy over fact and to the phenomenal success of the complete Cathar reinvention (and rehabilitation) over the last century and a half.

Seconded. Well put.
These romantic cathars-templars-grail-secret-fantasies might be a heritage of the "Grand Tour", who knows.



Eginolf, you are also the person who seconded Roger, in saying there were no Templar vessels at La Rochelle, when in fact we know for sure that they had controlled that port for 168 years.---Bill

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2011 2:28 pm 
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'The Proceedings Against the Knights Templars in the Kingdom of England 1309

These are the Articles upon which Inquisition shall be made, against the Brothers of the Military Order of the Temple, as against singular Persons much exposed and vehemently suspected, in relation to the Contents of the said Articles, and a mighty Scandal lying against them, as to these Particulars.

Articles Against Singular Persons:

Item At the Place, Day and Hour aforesaid, in the Presence of the aforementioned Lords, and before ourselves, the mentioned Notaries, the Articles enclosed in the Apostolic Bull were exhibited, and opened before us, the Contents as below.

46. Item That the Brothers themselves had Idols in every Province, viz Heads; some of which had three Faces, and some one, and some had a Man’s Skull.
47. Item That they adored that Idol, or those Idols, more especially in their great Chapters and Assemblies.
48. Item That they honoured it.
49. Item That it was as a God.
50. Item That it was as their Saviour.
51. Item That some of them did it.
52. Item That the major part did.
53. Item That they said the Head could save them.
54. Item That it could enrich them.
55. Item That it gave them all the wealth of the Order.
56. Item That it made the land produce.
57. Item That it made the trees blossom.
58. Item That they touched the Idol with a Cord that they then wore.
59. Item That at their reception a cord was given to every Brother.
60. Item That they did this in honour of the Idol.
61. Item That they wore the cord always.
87. Item That every Brother should be questioned about the Heads or Idols, whether they know were they are, and how they were carried about and kept, and by whom'.



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Spartacus

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2011 4:17 pm 
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High King
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wayward wrote:
Eginolf, you are also the person who seconded Roger, in saying there were no Templar vessels at La Rochelle, when in fact we know for sure that they had controlled that port for 168 years.---Bill

To control a port means to have guardians there. At La Rochelle were 4 templar ships at the max. And the order mostly rented ships, did not own them. Your theory walks on thin ice, Bill.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2011 6:06 pm 
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Eginolf wrote:
wayward wrote:
Eginolf, you are also the person who seconded Roger, in saying there were no Templar vessels at La Rochelle, when in fact we know for sure that they had controlled that port for 168 years.---Bill

To control a port means to have guardians there. At La Rochelle were 4 templar ships at the max. And the order mostly rented ships, did not own them. Your theory walks on thin ice, Bill.



The Templars were given (at La Rochelle) Mills, Houses, and the free use of La Rochelle for eternity. We also know they had vineyards for commercial use within the vicinity of that port. If you are getting the information for 4 leased ships from Helen Nicholson, she uses figures from 1312 on the Hospital, which would seem to be irrelevant. The fact is the Templars were constantly building and or buying ships, both warships and cargo vessels. Helen also says that the Galleys of the order could not have stood up to an ocean crossing or could not carry enough water. Vikings, in much lesser ships, had been making this crossing for 400 years, and with relative safety and reliability, enough so that they also took their families. Using the Viking routes, the longest cross ocean leg is no longer than 250 miles.

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