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 Post subject: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 12:08 pm 
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(1)Hugh I had become the first of the Counts of Champagne when his older brother, Odo V, who had been the Count Of Troyes died in 1093. This title, The Count Of Troyes, then passed to Hugh who had already inherited his father's titles, Count of Blois and Count of Bar-Sur-Aube. These three countships, together forming an emerging Champagne. As Troyes was the site of the only Bishopric in his domains Hugh preferred the title, Count of Troyes, and in fact the Court of Champagne as well as Hugh's residence were located in Troyes. His descendents chose to use only the title of Count of Champagne, which is what we now know him by. In this period of the early 12th century the Count of Champagne was considered to be several times wealthier than even the King of France.

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Last edited by wayward on 17 Sep 2012 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 4:48 pm 
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Are you just thinking out loud here Wayward :D


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 5:35 pm 
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tingra wrote:
Are you just thinking out loud here Wayward :D



Nope! I'm working up to something. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 6:58 pm 
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(2) In 1115 Hugh granted lands to Bernard of the reformed Benedictine order at Citeaux (the Cistercians), whom as we shall see also becomes part of what I call the Troyes connection. On these lands Bernard founded Clairvaux Abbey, a Cistercian monastery at Clairvaux, thereafter becoming Bernard of Clairvaux.

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 7:44 pm 
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wayward wrote:
(2) In 1115 Hugh granted lands to Bernard of the reformed Benedictine order at Citeaux (the Cistercians), whom as we shall see also becomes part of what I call the Troyes connection. On these lands Bernard founded Clairvaux Abbey, a Cistercian monastery at Clairvaux, thereafter becoming Bernard of Clairvaux.

Keep going ........
Regards
Nic


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 8:00 pm 
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BULLDOGNIC wrote:
wayward wrote:
(2) In 1115 Hugh granted lands to Bernard of the reformed Benedictine order at Citeaux (the Cistercians), whom as we shall see also becomes part of what I call the Troyes connection. On these lands Bernard founded Clairvaux Abbey, a Cistercian monastery at Clairvaux, thereafter becoming Bernard of Clairvaux.

Keep going ........
Regards
Nic


How long before he gets to the Shroud do you figure?

Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence

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You've discovered you can look inside yourself
You know what that means? You're promoted.
You're no longer a bum; you're an artist."

Hans Richter "Dreams That Money Can Buy"


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 8:12 pm 
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wayward wrote:
(2) In 1115 Hugh granted lands to Bernard of the reformed Benedictine order at Citeaux (the Cistercians), whom as we shall see also becomes part of what I call the Troyes connection. On these lands Bernard founded Clairvaux Abbey, a Cistercian monastery at Clairvaux, thereafter becoming Bernard of Clairvaux.


The web of connections you're building has already been shown in HBHG, Bill, which almost everybody here is familiar with because it's three decades old! Just jump ahead to the new part (presumably you are gonna add something, right?), we know the background already...

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 8:22 pm 
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Father Silence wrote:
BULLDOGNIC wrote:
wayward wrote:
(2) In 1115 Hugh granted lands to Bernard of the reformed Benedictine order at Citeaux (the Cistercians), whom as we shall see also becomes part of what I call the Troyes connection. On these lands Bernard founded Clairvaux Abbey, a Cistercian monastery at Clairvaux, thereafter becoming Bernard of Clairvaux.

Keep going ........
Regards
Nic


How long before he gets to the Shroud do you figure?

Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence


I don't think it's about the Shroud. Bill believes that 'Priory of Sion Grandmaster da Vinci' photographed himself to make the Shroud (you know, a la Lynn Picknett). I bet it has something to with Mathilda of Tuscany :!:

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 8:37 pm 
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Spartacus Paraclete wrote:
Father Silence wrote:

How long before he gets to the Shroud do you figure?

Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence


I don't think it's about the Shroud. Bill believes that 'Priory of Sion Grandmaster da Vinci' photographed himself to make the Shroud (you know, a la Lynn Picknett). I bet it has something to with Mathilda of Tuscany :!:


Don't be do sure. It was the bishop of Troyes who first denounced the Shroud as a fake. I'm sure he wont' leave out the trouvier Chretian [with an E] whose original Grail story may have been written as part of a proposal of marriage to his patron, the Countess of Champagne.

FS

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You've discovered you can look inside yourself
You know what that means? You're promoted.
You're no longer a bum; you're an artist."

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 8:47 pm 
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Father Silence wrote:
Spartacus Paraclete wrote:
Father Silence wrote:

How long before he gets to the Shroud do you figure?

Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence


I don't think it's about the Shroud. Bill believes that 'Priory of Sion Grandmaster da Vinci' photographed himself to make the Shroud (you know, a la Lynn Picknett). I bet it has something to with Mathilda of Tuscany :!:


Don't be do sure. It was the bishop of Troyes who first denounced the Shroud as a fake. I'm sure he wont' leave out the trouvier Chretian [with an E] whose original Grail story may have been written as part of a proposal of marriage to his patron, the Countess of Champagne.

FS


But the Bishop of Troyes only denounced the Shroud because he knew it proved that Jesus was God, and therefore unable to father a bloodline! A bloodline that he was sworn to protect... And lets not forget the role Philip, Count of Flanders, played...

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 8:59 pm 
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(3) Count Hugh made three visits to the Holy Land, the first in 1104, only a few years after its being liberated from the so-called infidels by the events of what is now called the First Crusade, 1096-1099. Shortly after leaving Troyes in 1104 his wife, Constance Capet, the daughter of King Philip of France divorced him. On this trip Hugh remained in Palestine for 4 years, returning to Troyes in 1108. In 1114 the count made a second trip, and it seems according to a letter he had received from the Bishop of Chatres, which read in part "we have heard that...before leaving for Jerusalem you made a vow to join 'La Milice du Christ'." The authors of Holy Blood Holy Grail make a very good argument that this 'La Milice du Christ' can only refer to the Knights Templar, saying that the Bishop goes on to speak of a required vow of chastity, that was not required of an ordinary crusader and also that this is the name by which Bernard alludes to them. Of course this indicates an earlier beginning to the Templars than normally stated which is generally 1118.

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 9:00 pm 
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wayward wrote:
(3) Count Hugh made three visits to the Holy Land, the first in 1104, only a few years after its being liberated from the so-called infidels by the events of what is now called the First Crusade, 1096-1099. Shortly after leaving Troyes in 1104 his wife, Constance Capet, the daughter of King Philip of France divorced him. On this trip Hugh remained in Palestine for 4 years, returning to Troyes in 1108. In 1114 the count made a second trip, and it seems according to a letter he had received from the Bishop of Chatres, which read in part "we have heard that...before leaving for Jerusalem you made a vow to join 'La Milice du Christ'." The authors of Holy Blood Holy Grail make a very good argument that this 'La Milice du Christ' can only refer to the Knights Templar, saying that the Bishop goes on to speak of a required vow of chastity, that was not required of an ordinary crusader and also that this is the name by which Bernard alludes to them. Of course this indicates an earlier beginning to the Templars than normally stated which is generally 1118.


all a la HBHG..!

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 10:39 pm 
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Father Silence wrote:
Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence


That's the most clever insight I've seen offered here or anywhere in a long, long time. Kudos for that moment's reprieve from mind-bending boredom.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 10:46 pm 
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TCP wrote:
Father Silence wrote:
Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence


That's the most clever insight I've seen offered here or anywhere in a long, long time. Kudos for that moment's reprieve from mind-bending boredom.

TCP



Hello Tim!

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 11:26 pm 
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wayward wrote:
(3) Count Hugh made three visits to the Holy Land, the first in 1104, only a few years after its being liberated from the so-called infidels by the events of what is now called the First Crusade, 1096-1099. Shortly after leaving Troyes in 1104 his wife, Constance Capet, the daughter of King Philip of France divorced him. On this trip Hugh remained in Palestine for 4 years, returning to Troyes in 1108. In 1114 the count made a second trip, and it seems according to a letter he had received from the Bishop of Chatres, which read in part "we have heard that...before leaving for Jerusalem you made a vow to join 'La Milice du Christ'." The authors of Holy Blood Holy Grail make a very good argument that this 'La Milice du Christ' can only refer to the Knights Templar, saying that the Bishop goes on to speak of a required vow of chastity, that was not required of an ordinary crusader and also that this is the name by which Bernard alludes to them. Of course this indicates an earlier beginning to the Templars than normally stated which is generally 1118.


Crusaders were indeed supposed to pledge chastity (while their wives were locked up in metal belts designed for this very contingency).

Sexuality in the Middle Ages and Early Modern Times

"The crusades, in many ways, represented the ultimate test of this new clerical philosophy of Christian warfare. Crusades preachers portrayed crusading as a vocacio hominum ad crucem, a temporary vocation that began with the taking of a vow that involved a spiritual reformation of the crusader's life and included the requirement of chastity for both the married and the unmarried crusader. Chastity was, according to clerical reformers, an especially important element of the new identity of the crusader who was set apart from other combatants by virtue of their personal holiness. Crusaders could count on divine help in battle as long as they avoided sin and remained pleasing to God. Although clerics pointed to a number of sins crusaders should avoid, they emphasized sexual sins associated with women as particularly offensive to God and having the ability to bring about disaster on the battlefield."

Additionally, the "Milice du Christ" wasn't established until 1317 - for ex-Templars.

Never a good idea to put too much stock in Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh, Bill - they were notoriously bad for the half-assed and selective quality of their research.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2012 11:28 pm 
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wayward wrote:
TCP wrote:
Father Silence wrote:
Hmmmm. You can win a wrestling by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat for a "count of three". Coincidence?

Father Silence


That's the most clever insight I've seen offered here or anywhere in a long, long time. Kudos for that moment's reprieve from mind-bending boredom.

TCP



Hello Tim!


Hiya Bill!

Are you up to the part about Hugues de Payens being married to Catherine Sinclair yet? :lol:

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 12:53 am 
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Actually the official order of "the Militia of Christ" was established by the Dominicans in 1233, but the term "Milice du Christ" as stated in the letter by the Bishop of Chartres was a seemingly more general term. It could have meant a general crusader but I don't think so as the count was considered to be one of the first nine Templars.

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 12:55 am 
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TCP wrote:

Hiya Bill!

Are you up to the part about Hugues de Payens being married to Catherine Sinclair yet? :lol:

TCP



I guess I had thought that most didn't agree with that. Do you think it true?

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 1:05 am 
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(4)The year following Count Hugh's first trip to Palestine in 1104, on July 13, 1105, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki died in Troyes. Known as Rashi (an acronym of his name) he is now considered the father of all commentaries that followed on the Talmud (the central text of mainstrem Judaism) and his works remain a centerpiece of contempory Jewish study. A Rashi commentary on the Pentateuch or Torah, the first five books of the Jewish biblical canon became the first printed Hebrew book.

"Rashi and the Christian Scholars" by Herman Hailperin 1963, "an important but somewhat neglected chapter of the history of biblical interpretation... is the influence of the medieval jewish exegetes on their christian counterparts... In the french Champagne of Rashi...contacts with christian scholars were not exceptional for the Rabbis and other jewish scholars.

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 2:48 am 
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wayward wrote:
Actually the official order of "the Militia of Christ" was established by the Dominicans in 1233, but the term "Milice du Christ" as stated in the letter by the Bishop of Chartres was a seemingly more general term. It could have meant a general crusader but I don't think so as the count was considered to be one of the first nine Templars.


Not by anyone credible.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 2:52 am 
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wayward wrote:
TCP wrote:

Hiya Bill!

Are you up to the part about Hugues de Payens being married to Catherine Sinclair yet? :lol:

TCP



I guess I had thought that most didn't agree with that. Do you think it true?


Nope, never did. It wasn't until yours truly produced a source for evidence of the fact that Hugues' wife in 1113 and widow in 1137 was a lady from Champagne named Isabelle (or Elisabeth) des Chappes that some of the "notable" Sinclairs (and their author friends) started backing away from that claim.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 7:16 am 
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Quote:
Count Hugh made three visits to the Holy Land, the first in 1104, only a few years after its being liberated from the so-called infidels by the events of what is now called the First Crusade, 1096-1099. Shortly after leaving Troyes in 1104 his wife, Constance Capet, the daughter of King Philip of France divorced him.

AFAIK he has never been married. He died age 40 without ever having a wife, I believed. Did I miss something? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 8:56 am 
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TCP wrote:
wayward wrote:
TCP wrote:

Hiya Bill!

Are you up to the part about Hugues de Payens being married to Catherine Sinclair yet? :lol:

TCP



I guess I had thought that most didn't agree with that. Do you think it true?


Nope, never did. It wasn't until yours truly produced a source for evidence of the fact that Hugues' wife in 1113 and widow in 1137 was a lady from Champagne named Isabelle (or Elisabeth) des Chappes that some of the "notable" Sinclairs (and their author friends) started backing away from that claim.

TCP


I can back that up! I questioned Andrew Sinclair publically about it, citing Tim's work on the matter, and Andrew said it had been a misunderstanding and that people shouldn't take HBHG seriously :D

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 10:10 am 
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TCP wrote:
wayward wrote:
TCP wrote:

Hiya Bill!

Are you up to the part about Hugues de Payens being married to Catherine Sinclair yet? :lol:

TCP


I guess I had thought that most didn't agree with that. Do you think it true?


Nope, never did. It wasn't until yours truly produced a source for evidence of the fact that Hugues' wife in 1113 and widow in 1137 was a lady from Champagne named Isabelle (or Elisabeth) des Chappes that some of the "notable" Sinclairs (and their author friends) started backing away from that claim.
TCP



Umm, that was sarcasm Tim, sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: Count of Champagne
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2012 10:12 am 
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Eginolf wrote:
Quote:
Count Hugh made three visits to the Holy Land, the first in 1104, only a few years after its being liberated from the so-called infidels by the events of what is now called the First Crusade, 1096-1099. Shortly after leaving Troyes in 1104 his wife, Constance Capet, the daughter of King Philip of France divorced him.

AFAIK he has never been married. He died age 40 without ever having a wife, I believed. Did I miss something? :)



I think that perhaps you did Egi.

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