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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2010 12:37 pm 
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I have been reading as much as i can about the early years of the Knights Templar.

Have read that some of the Knights had an early connection with Serborga, with a suggestion that there was a 'great secret' there. Seborga is also linked with Saint Bernard, the 'castrum sephuchri' and the Cathars. Lots of other interesting information, but how valid is it?

I will continue to search, but if anyone has any info. on this???
Have they even heard about it?

Many thanks.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2010 1:08 pm 
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I visited Seborga and interviewed Prince Giorgio at length and in depth. Seborga itself is a lovely spot high on a hill near the French border. A fascinating mixture of history and legend, the Prince was a deeply aware man as well as something of a showman. Sadly he died last December. This article by Douglas Martin from the NY Times explains things fairly well -

Nestled near the beaches of the Italian Riviera and the snow-capped Alps sits the tiny principality of Seborga, a place that floats on legends. Over the centuries, plagues and earthquakes have struck the region and missed Seborga, or so the stories say. Some insist that knights took the Holy Grail there.

Giorgio Carbone, shown in 2005, was elected prince for life of Seborga, which he considered independent, and was called His Tremendousness.

But the true miracle of Seborga may have been the 46-year reign of Prince Giorgio I, the constitutionally elected royal ruler of its five square miles and 2,000 people, about 350 of whom are enfranchised citizens.

Prince Giorgio, a bewhiskered grower of mimosa flowers from a family of mimosa growers, was seized by a glorious vision: that Seborga was not part of the surrounding Italian nation. It was an ancient principality, cruelly robbed of its sovereignty.

After convincing his Seborgan neighbors of their true significance, Giorgio Carbone was elected prince in 1963. He gracefully accepted the informal title of His Tremendousness, and was elected prince for life in 1995 by a vote of 304 to 4. Voters then ratified Seborga’s independence, which, by the prince’s interpretation, it already had.

Prince Giorgio established a palace, wrote a Constitution, and set up a cabinet and a parliament. He chose a coat of arms, minted money (with his picture), issued stamps (with his picture) and license plates, selected a national anthem and mobilized a standing army, consisting of Lt. Antonello Lacala. He adopted a motto: Sub umbra sede (Sit in the shade).

But the principality’s future has suddenly turned cloudy. Prince Giorgio I died at his home in Seborga on Nov. 25 after suffering from Lou Gehrig’s disease, the principality announced. He was 73. Succession plans are uncertain.

More than 20 countries have recognized independent Seborga, in one fashion or another. Except Italy. The Seborghini pay taxes to Italy and vote in its elections. Some Italians mutter that Prince Giorgio’s true goal was to create a tourist attraction at a time when the flower industry was migrating to the Netherlands.

Tourism indeed rose, but Prince Giorgio ridiculed the Italian government’s claim that it was his motive. “The government are imbeciles!” he told The Daily Telegraph of London in 1999. “Tourists? Pshaw!”

Doubters perhaps did not grasp the history that the prince had so painstakingly reconstructed. In the year 954, local counts ceded Seborga to Roman Catholic monks, and in 1079 Pope Gregory VII and Emperor Henry IV elevated it to the rank of an imperial principality of the Holy Roman Empire.

In 1729, the Savoy dynasty bought Seborga, but did not register the transaction, a failure that invalidated the sale, Prince Giorgio contended. The error was compounded when Seborga was not mentioned by the Congress of Vienna in 1815, nor in the act of unification of Italy in 1861, nor in the formation of the Italian republic in 1946.

“Even Mussolini did not consider Seborga to be part of Italy,” the prince said in a 1996 interview with The Globe and Mail, the Toronto newspaper. He did not explain.

How Mr. Carbone came to see himself as royalty is fuzzy, but the process had clearly started when he took up a horse and carriage. And really, who was he to protest when the Seborghini hailed him as prince, after he had so lucidly persuaded them that they lived in a principality?

Since the Middle Ages, Seborga’s sovereign had been elected, so the princely plebiscite that elevated Mr. Carbone was a return to tradition. He took to the throne with panache, wearing sash, sword and large rosette medallions as he held court at the Bianca Azzura bar. He traveled in a flag-bedecked Mercedes-Benz that was briefly impounded by the Italian police because of its Seborgan plates.

Prince Giorgio’s dedication was so total that he forsook marriage, telling People magazine in 1993 that he loved his female subjects equally. He left no immediate survivors.

Early in his reign the prince, a heavy smoker, passed a law to encourage smoking. His uneasy relationship with the elected mayor of Seborga improved as the mayor counted the tourists the prince attracted, and the prince realized that the mayor did the boring work.

Prince Giorgio sent many letters with the principality’s stamps to officials in Rome, and he gloated that none bounced back marked “Return to sender,” The Riviera Times reported. Not that any were answered.

In 2005, he made a rare television appearance on the BBC program “How to Start Your Own Country.” His only political challenge came in 2006, when Princess Yasmine von Hohenstaufen Anjou Plantagenet mysteriously materialized to claim the throne with the intention of returning it to Italy. The Seborghini responded with indifference, and that was that.

Prince Giorgio accepted no salary, although it is not clear he was offered one. He daily availed himself of ham and cheese from the village shop, a royal perquisite.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/world ... rbone.html

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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2010 11:38 am 
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This may not be the correct thread for this, but I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile. Would some of the more flamboyant Knights of the order have been allowed to joust or tilt in competition? My question is intended specifically for the late 13th century, although I would welcome any information on this.---Bill

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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2010 8:33 pm 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
have been allowed to joust or tilt in competition


Not legitimately. (even had such competitions been common in that time, which is not the case)



Thanks Roger, How about the same information for the early 14th century. I assume it still would not have been legitimate, but I would also assume the joust would have been more common. Even if not allowed by the order, is it possible the hierarchy could have looked the other way? Maybe there is no answer for this, but it is something I have wondered about and have not been able to find anything on it myself.---Bill

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2010 11:01 am 
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Roger wrote:
Well, tourneys were barely becoming real events, but the Templars were history.



c-mon Roger, I was being serious. I guess I should have said "very early 14th century". Do you think it's possible that one could never find this out. Meaning whether or not that some of the Templar Knights actually competed in these events.---Bill

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010 2:10 pm 
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wayward wrote:
Roger wrote:
Well, tourneys were barely becoming real events, but the Templars were history.



c-mon Roger, I was being serious. I guess I should have said "very early 14th century". Do you think it's possible that one could never find this out. Meaning whether or not that some of the Templar Knights actually competed in these events.---Bill


ok, I'll answer this myself.

Bollocks!

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010 3:40 pm 
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Roger wrote:
C'mon, mon p'tit lapin... You can't have been serious. By the "very early" XIVth century, the Order was pretty much done. Any campaign veterans still in the Order were old men, not likely to participate in tourneys, even if they had been allowed to.

The tradition of elaborate tourneys as talent-scouting, social and political networking and an opportunity for aristocratic bragging-rights, is a later one, in any case.



Thanks very much for the answer Roger, although it was like pulling teeth. I guess that goes along with what I had sort of thought. As you know it is very difficult to get accurate information on the Templars.

I think you called me "your little rabbit", I hope that doesn't stick.---Bill

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2010 9:04 am 
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Chinon Parchment

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2010 9:17 am 
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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 6:14 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
I have been reading as much as i can about the early years of the Knights Templar.

Have read that some of the Knights had an early connection with Serborga, with a suggestion that there was a 'great secret' there. Seborga is also linked with Saint Bernard, the 'castrum sephuchri' and the Cathars. Lots of other interesting information, but how valid is it?

I will continue to search, but if anyone has any info. on this???
Have they even heard about it?

Many thanks.


Serborga is in Liguria a semi autonomous state. Here's their flag:

Image
HERACLES IN LIGURIA The great hero was said to have been placed amongst the stars in the shape of kneeling man, as a memorial of his desperate battle with the Ligurians, whom he encountered on his return trip to Greece with the cattle of Geryon. (Hyginus 2.6 on Euripides) 12th Labour

This is after he had slain the Dragon called Ladon that guarded the Golden Apples of the Hesperides in one of his 12 Labours. 11th labour.

Image

Here's another KNEELING MAN pointing at the phrase I too am in Arcadia

Image

Heracles was in Arcadia of course.

Of course it's aaaaaaaaaallllllllllllll coincidence :wink:

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 6:59 am 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
As you know it is very difficult to get accurate information on the Templars.


No. That's the infuriating thing! There is a LOT of verifiable information on the Order, and even more credible information, although not always verifiable except with very serious sources.

The problem is that there's a HUMONGOUS HEAP of completely invented crap and TONS of twisted disinformation on the Order. These rather remarkable and exceedingly Catholic gentlemen, because of the impact on the popular imagination caused by their ignominious fate, have been ILL-USED by almost every esoteric sect, baboonish pseudo-masonic organization, and any number of unscrupulously royalty-hungry trash-history writers. This has been going on for at least 4 centuries, and it's now almost impossible to eradicate the myths. As an example, the completely mythical "baphomet" case. This non-existent artifact of the Inquisition (admittedly so, btw), has now "become fact" and acceptable fodder for quite erudite etymological studies and dissertations by academics who simply accept the untrue premise of its very existence!

And that only shows you that you can take something that never actually existed, and create a "serious academic pedigree" for it by citing studies that never critically examined the underlying premise in the first place, and then use these same studies as "proof of its existence".

Personally, I find this revolting, but you'll find many on this and many other forums, who delight in it and use it to bolster their hare-brained theories.


You're right Roger. So back to Extreme Unction and the Roman Rite it is then. Lets get some sensibility back into all this :wink:

Say it loud and proud.

My myths are better than your myths and I once had a Roman Army to back up what I DICTATE.

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 1:39 pm 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
Say it loud and proud.
My myths are better than your myths and I once had a Roman Army to back up what I DICTATE.


You're all wet, poppet... it's sad to behold!

You seem to concern yourself only with myths, and recent ones at that.
You steadfastly (actually, quite frenetically!) ignore the facts.
Whatever "myths" constituted the faith of the Templars, and whatever facts we know of their history (and quite a lot of facts, despite your studied ignorance), you always replace them with your myths and your spurious facts, in order to bolster your obsessions. This is treatable, poppet, just go lie down on an expert's couch for a bit and tell him (or her) where it hurts... you'll feel better.


What facts would they be Gungadin?

Oh I forgot you don't answer that question you only prefer to talk in nebulous terms so your truisms cannot be ever scrutinised and questioned

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 1:58 pm 
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Roger wrote:
The facts, my poor dear poppet, are that the Order was made up of fanatically CATHOLIC Knights, without a single esoteric bone in their bodies. Neither were they heretics, in the RCC sense, they did have a prodigiously successful if rather short existence and their misguided devotion to the Pope was their downfall (that, as well as the fact their existence was no longer justified for their original purpose). Simple, but I can see how it irritates you!


Oh really?

What do you suppose this means?

Quote:
The work has been accomplished with our help, and the Knights have been sent on a journey through France and Burgundy, under the protection of the Count of Champagne, where all precautions can be taken against all interference by public or ecclesiastical authority
- Bernhard of Clairvaux 1127.

Tell me about Sir Charles Warren and the Palestine Exploration Fund of 1860? and the British Enginneers map of 1894?

After their return from Palestine the Templars received International status as a Sovereign Order at the Council of Troyes. From this point onwards the Templars received gold and land from kings. Yep methinks we can safely say that the Templars found something.

I take it you also know that the Templars bought land around Peyroles in 1127, a charter says so.

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 2:36 pm 
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The work has been accomplished with our help, and the Knights have been sent on a journey through France and Burgundy, under the protection of the Count of Champagne, where all precautions can be taken against all interference by public or ecclesiastical authority

Please can you supply the reference for this quote?
Which Bernard writing can i go and look up to find ....


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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 4:29 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
The work has been accomplished with our help, and the Knights have been sent on a journey through France and Burgundy, under the protection of the Count of Champagne, where all precautions can be taken against all interference by public or ecclesiastical authority

Please can you supply the reference for this quote?
Which Bernard writing can i go and look up to find ....


Louis Carpentier - Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral - chapter8 Page 69

If you want to know the source of his quote then buy the book

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 6:33 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Have read that some of the Knights had an early connection with Serborga, with a suggestion that there was a 'great secret' there. Seborga is also linked with Saint Bernard, the 'castrum sephuchri' and the Cathars. Lots of other interesting information, but how valid is it?


Getting back to the topic at hand...

Seborga is home to a plethora of neo-chivalric "orders" - including yet another iteration of the Templars - that are of very recent vintage, twenty to forty years at most. Maintaining "great secrets" tends to be a standard plot line among them, having no other discernable purpose than an appeal to self-aggrandizement and to line the pockets of their creators.

"Prince" Giorgio Carbone's interpretation of the history of the place was an entirely self-serving pretence. Seborga had been set up in 1079 as an ecclesiastical principality of the Holy Roman Empire, under the rule of a Prince-Abbot. When the Cistercian abbey was dissolved in 1729, the land - which had originally been donated to the Cistercians by the Berengar of Ivrea, Count of Ventimiglia - reverted to the House of Savoy who were the heirs-general of the defunct Comital House of Ventimiglia. Its sovereignty ceased to exist when the abbey was dissolved.

Carbone, however, maintained that sovereignty remained in abeyance (until he proclaimed it again in 1963, installing himself as "prince") as neither Victor Amadeus II nor Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia (also Dukes of Savoy) had properly registered their "purchase" - but there was no "purchase" to register. The terms of the original grant dictated that the territory would revert to the County of Ventimiglia should the abbey go defunct. Carbone also cites the "failure" of the Congress of Vienna in 1815 to determine Seborga's continued sovereignty as an indicator of continued independence. Naturally the Congress would not have considered the issue, as Seborga had ceased to be a sovereign entity 86 years previously. And by 1815, even the Holy Roman Empire itself which bestowed the ecclesiastical benefice in the first place was defunct.

The only tangible evidence of a Templar "connection" to the place came in the form of old town registers from the 12th century, indicating that Templars, Hospitallers, and all manner of knights without affiliation to any order lodged at the abbey while on the road to Calabria to board ships for the Holy Land. None of these ever established a commandery or any sort of permanent presence there, it was merely a hostelry.

TCP


Last edited by TCP on 03 May 2010 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 6:52 pm 
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ndawe wrote:
This article by Douglas Martin from the NY Times explains things fairly well -

But the true miracle of Seborga may have been the 46-year reign of Prince Giorgio I, the constitutionally elected royal ruler of its five square miles and 2,000 people, about 350 of whom are enfranchised citizens.


Important point here - of a population of 2,000, only around 350 actively participated in Carbone's tourist stunts.

ndawe wrote:
After convincing his Seborgan neighbors of their true significance, Giorgio Carbone was elected prince in 1963. He gracefully accepted the informal title of His Tremendousness, and was elected prince for life in 1995 by a vote of 304 to 4. Voters then ratified Seborga’s independence, which, by the prince’s interpretation, it already had.


One is left to wonder whether or not these 300 or so participants also vote in the municipal elections for the mayoralty, which does the actual business of governing the town, or in regional or national elections.

ndawe wrote:
But the principality’s future has suddenly turned cloudy. Prince Giorgio I died at his home in Seborga on Nov. 25 after suffering from Lou Gehrig’s disease, the principality announced. He was 73. Succession plans are uncertain.


They had their election for a successor on April 25th and chose Marcello Menegatto - aka "Prince Marcello I." This time only 220 voted.

http://seborgatimes.blogspot.com/

ndawe wrote:
More than 20 countries have recognized independent Seborga, in one fashion or another. Except Italy.


Uh - let's qualify that statement a bit. More than 20 "micronations" (usually comprised on nothing more than websites advertising specious territorial claims) have recognized independent Seborga, in one fashion or another. The total number of actual independent nations who have recognized Seborgan sovereignty is zero.

ndawe wrote:
The Seborghini pay taxes to Italy and vote in its elections. Some Italians mutter that Prince Giorgio’s true goal was to create a tourist attraction at a time when the flower industry was migrating to the Netherlands.


The man did own a flower business!

ndawe wrote:
Tourism indeed rose, but Prince Giorgio ridiculed the Italian government’s claim that it was his motive. “The government are imbeciles!” he told The Daily Telegraph of London in 1999. “Tourists? Pshaw!”


Which doesn't explain why he spent the better part of 46 years putting on shows for the tourists.

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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 7:46 pm 
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Louis Carpentier - Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral - chapter8 Page 69

If you want to know the source of his quote then buy the book



Your research Roscoe is really shallow.

Quoting Louis CHarpentier is hardly a good source imho. You think that takes precedence over the works of Bernard himself???

And you say 'to know the source, buy
Charpentiers book'!

You know, you are the same as the accusations you throw out about Roger on 'giving out his sources'. You always berate him about where his sources are, and how he never gives them and look at what you are dishing out???

If you were a 'researcher' like you claim, you would go and look at Bernard of Clairvaux YOURSELF, to verify the quote YOURSELF, and find out if Bernard of Clairvaux REALLY said that.

If you already know where it came from, (which i doubt - otherwise you would use a SOURCE quote and primary material, not a SECONDARY source) and are just not giving it out, because of some sort of spite or whatever, then that says such alot about you!

:roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: 03 May 2010 8:29 pm 
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wayward wrote:
Roger wrote:
Quote:
have been allowed to joust or tilt in competition


Not legitimately. (even had such competitions been common in that time, which is not the case)



Thanks Roger, How about the same information for the early 14th century. I assume it still would not have been legitimate, but I would also assume the joust would have been more common. Even if not allowed by the order, is it possible the hierarchy could have looked the other way? Maybe there is no answer for this, but it is something I have wondered about and have not been able to find anything on it myself.---Bill


Aside from the religious vows taken by Templars to avoid ostentatious displays (and flirtatious women), the costs borne by the loser in a hastilude (i.e. a joust or armed competition) would not have been something the hierarchy would have approved of. The winner took the loser's armor, sword and horse and set an amount of "ransom" to be paid in cash (not an actual ransom, more of a wager). The individual Templars turned over their belongings to the Order on admission, and thus had nothing of their own to "play" with or to lose. Tourneys were to all intents and purposes a form of gambling, and as such not something for monks, even "warrior-monks", to engage in.

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PostPosted: 04 May 2010 1:22 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Louis Carpentier - Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral - chapter8 Page 69

If you want to know the source of his quote then buy the book



Your research Roscoe is really shallow.

Quoting Louis CHarpentier is hardly a good source imho. You think that takes precedence over the works of Bernard himself???

And you say 'to know the source, buy
Charpentiers book'!

You know, you are the same as the accusations you throw out about Roger on 'giving out his sources'. You always berate him about where his sources are, and how he never gives them and look at what you are dishing out???

If you were a 'researcher' like you claim, you would go and look at Bernard of Clairvaux YOURSELF, to verify the quote YOURSELF, and find out if Bernard of Clairvaux REALLY said that.

If you already know where it came from, (which i doubt - otherwise you would use a SOURCE quote and primary material, not a SECONDARY source) and are just not giving it out, because of some sort of spite or whatever, then that says such alot about you!

:roll: :roll:


So you think Louis Carpentier didn't give a reference?

You see here's the problem. Even if I showed you a picture of the latin text you (or others) would say it's a fake. You have a belief system you see and you cannot break out of it.

I use this forum in order to train myself on how to overcome the jealousy.

I am a researcher I just don't like you. Savvy?

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PostPosted: 04 May 2010 1:44 am 
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Roger wrote:
That dog won't hunt.

Context is important, poppet. You're getting desperate to intimate things that aren't there, aren't you?

Are you upset that the mothership hasn't called for you yet?


Buy the book then.

Sir Charles Warren? Royal Engineers Map? Peyrolles?

Hello Planet Earth calling. Anyone home?

Let me ask you a question Roger (what am I doing, I know you wont answer, I'll get some nebulous irrelevency)

Still I'll put it up anyway.

Have YOU ever been to Rennes le Chateau Roger?

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PostPosted: 04 May 2010 5:25 am 
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roscoe wrote:
I am a researcher I just don't like you.

roscoe doesn't like anyone - not even himself. :lol:


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PostPosted: 04 May 2010 6:08 am 
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So you think Louis Carpentier didn't give a reference?

You see here's the problem. Even if I showed you a picture of the latin text you (or others) would say it's a fake. You have a belief system you see and you cannot break out of it.

I use this forum in order to train myself on how to overcome the jealousy.

I am a researcher I just don't like you. Savvy?




So you think Louis Carpentier didn't give a reference?

Oh, for gods sake, read what i said properly

You see here's the problem. Even if I showed you a picture of the latin text you (or others) would say it's a fake. You have a belief system you see and you cannot break out of it.

Why would i say its a fake? Thats your game. You are always making judgements about people - you really have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

I use this forum in order to train myself on how to overcome the jealousy.

You have several screws loose ...and you are just so strange.

I am a researcher

Yeh, right :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I just don't like you

So professional.

And this would be because:

1) I prefer, if i can, academic sources rather than junk ideas collected from the internet.
or
2) Because i once said Roger did supply you a source about the monks of Orval and their origins
or
3) Because i have caught you out before on several occasions where you have supplied wrong information and interpretations
or
4) Because i said your research is shallow.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 04 May 2010 6:09 am 
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roscoe doesn't like anyone - not even himself.

Seems that way Eginolf.

Do you think hes like he is in 'real life'???

Shall we ask him who he does like on this Forum? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 04 May 2010 6:25 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
roscoe doesn't like anyone - not even himself.

Seems that way Eginolf.

Do you think hes like he is in 'real life'???

Shall we ask him who he does like on this Forum? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


I liked JB he never allowed himself to be intimidated.

I like Jim too. He came up with something really clever and you lot wont even look at it.

You know what I think really gets me.

Look at the number of entries in the Cathars section. If you go to Rennes le Chateau the Cathars are everywhere but they NEVER get discussed here. This is a measure of how totally ignorant most people are on here. Most people don't even know that French is a minority language in this area. It isn't even second.

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CROMLECK DE RENNES is here.
It's the SUN


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