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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 3:41 pm 
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Grand Master

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This may or may not work, but I thought I could create this thread as a general discussion on RlB. Sometimes random thoughts come up and may not fit into another thread so here we go.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 4:15 pm 
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Acolyte
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
This may or may not work, but I thought I could create this thread as a general discussion on RlB. Sometimes random thoughts come up and may not fit into another thread so here we go.


You are welcome

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 4:43 pm 
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Grand Master

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http://www.rhedesium.com/gourdon.html

In the article from J.Gourdon he say`s,
Quote:
in several points of the village today, mainly in the part between Bain-Fort and the hamlet of Le Cercle, it has been recognized, at various depths, a great quantity of remains of Roman buildings: constructions of buildings, fragments of mosaics, etc, which may have been part, either of private houses/villas or monuments of another order. The literal space occupied by these objects indicates an extended and fairly large city, in the Valley, spread out to the broader and more Southern area of the village. In this Valley, there was seen, in the middle of a cultivated field, the site of a square house, recognizable from the lines and 'crop marks' found in the vegetation where it was much less bushy than in the corresponding parts of older buildings. It is at this point especially there have been found, in the ground raised by agricultural implements, a huge amount of debris of all kinds, most covered with a layer of ash and charred fragments, testifying to the destiny of this ancient city, which, at the time when the whole country was ravaged by barbarians, was destroyed by fire.

Among the items discovered in the above cited circumstances, are objects of architecture, sculpture, pottery and various interior utensils, etc. The objects of architecture seem to be the most significant - they were found on the site of a house that actually forms the last house of the village of Bains, to the South; they consist of several sizable fragments of capitals, columns, etc., of remarkable work, in which it is easy to recognize the debris of a temple, dedicated either to Aesculapius or Hygeia. One of these fragments is the base of a column that can be currently seen at the fountain of the Cercle, where it has been used as a capital/cornice, and that its dimensions allow us to consider that it formed the base of a column of more than 10 meters in height.


What I have underlined is my question, did the original Roman city extend to Le Cercle, or would a few building existed that far south. I know most will say no, it never was south of the mairie (townhall) is newer. Gourdon seems to think different. Or am I wrong...again.

When Gourdon says "more southern area", to me it sounds like somewhere on the outskirts of town, like Le Cercle.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 6:46 pm 
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Queen Bee
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No he means the southern end of the town.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 6:48 pm 
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High King

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I hope my attempt at the French translation is adequate.

I am of course no expert, and am just providing what you may call a rough translation.

I always qualify what i am trying to do with the proviso that anyone who sees its glaringly wrong please to let me know. :oops:


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 7:02 pm 
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High King

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as a general discussion on RlB.

I have been reading about the Tectosages and how they were to first mine for the gold in the area.
Its amazing what they did.
The Tecto's are sort of around the La Tene culture and there is plenty of archaeology regarding their material
culture and what they did with gold.

Julius Caesar - in his gallic wars - may even have invaded to get the gold.

Always in the back of my mind is the assumption i make that the essential idea of a necropolis is correct. So i looked at the burial practises of
the Tectosages - but they practised inhumation in burial pits. Of course if the necropolis goes way back could it be an old mine
of the Tectosages?

I have looked at water sanctuaries of the Tectosages.

They are relevant because the Romans displaced the Tectosages and took their land and gold.

What im currently working on are the following:

1] the Romans appear to have used Tectosages as mercenaries in their army. Did the Romans learn anything from them?
2] The role of the father of Emperor Tiberius in setting up the colonies of the legions in the region.
3] What a soldier retired to the area could expect.
4] Who would have lived at the spa place of RLB. I do not think - on current evidence- that it was a large town. If one does not believe it was a large town the likes of Arles/Nimes etc then what was it? A local villa of some Roman person/soldier which later built into a larger village? Exactly as historians say it was, just a visiting spa resort for those who lived in the towns?
Why come to RLB - when there are larger thermae in the vicinity, not forgetting Alet which was a much more important 'town'.
5] when you start looking at documentary evidence - well - to put it bluntly there is none regarding RLB. It first appeared on documents in 1093. I cant find any evidence of it being called Aquae calidae as is often said. I dont know its orignal name. Its like a big chunk is missing of its history.

But i do accept that the Romans were there.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 7:08 pm 
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Queen Bee
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It's not so much the translation and i can only guess at how long it takes you to prepare your blogs, more how it should be read by others.

The ancient habitations being discussed above are firstly just below the Bains de la Reine on the right bank, which had mosaic flooring, bits of old pottery & tegulas.
The second Roman house was found in 1844 by Louis Pech on the left bank at the top entrance to the Park de la Reine. This is the building that's flattened by an enourmous slab of rock, here they found cinders and high quality glass etc.
The other main area of finds is the bank opposite the bains themselves....and we know the main area of interest extends below the Park and the road right up to the cliff.
Until 1834 there were no buildings on the left bank at this point in the village, the talus came right down to the river.
The funerary urns with cinders were found at Fousseillo which Dr Courrent calls the edge of the Rennes territory.

The pottery & ceramics that were found in fosses dépotoirs at le Cercle seemed to be mainly Italian urns for Oil, Wine etc and the ceramic workshop has been traced to Millau. (La Graufesenque was famous in the Gallo-Roman period for the production of high quality dark red terra sigillata Roman pottery, which was made in vast quantities and exported over much of the western part of the Roman Empire.)

The rest is evident if you read it slowly.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 9:45 pm 
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Grand Master

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There's something with that large open area south of the village and east of Le Cercle.

It's just – too flat.
Everything is tilted at RLB. There are slopes, hills, ravines but nothing is flat in this valley. Still this place is.

I am not saying there were ancient houses here, I don't think so.
But something has flattened this part out some time in history.

I was digging into it some time earlier.
Flooding can have this effect, even more so one that brings mud and material with it. So perhaps that is the most logic explanation. Specially if the area gets exposed to flooding on a regular basis.
Or maybe the flat area was the bottom of a long gone lake, only Gods knows how many years ago.
Don't know why but I am still not really pleased with those explanations.

The valley is very narrow at the south entrance to the main part of the village, but there's no signs there ever was a dam construction here which was another thought of mine.

Gold panning:
Quote:
The first recorded instances of placer mining are from ancient Rome, where gold and other precious metals were extracted from streams and mountainsides using sluices and panning.


Quote:
A sluice (from the Dutch "sluis") is a water channel controlled at its head by a gate.


But would there be any gold particles in the water and on the hills sides?
We do know the supposed gold would be underground, right? Or? Gold mining isn't really my glas of Haut Gléon...

Just a thought. Still looking for references to what the Roman sluices and gold panning equipment really looked like.

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 Post subject: stuff
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 12:26 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Anyway, since this is a general thread, here's a photo taken by Mr Storm of what's left of the ancient 'roman' bridge.

Image


All that's left of the central pillar after the floods of '92. It stands firm on bedrock, and the spot is called "le gouffre".
Jacques Rivière says "le pilier central qui repose sur une assise massive de roches, l'endroit est appelé "le gouffre".


Image

La source des Thermes Romains nait sur la rive droite de la Salz, dans un puits peu profond, alimenté par un griffon qui porte le nom de Bain de la "Maison" à la température de 52°; un deuxième griffon nait en rivière, où il est capté sous un dôme en ciment.

The source of the spring of the Bain Fort surfaces on the right bank of the Sals, in a shallow well, fed by a griffon (the opening from whence the hot mineral water comes forth) which is called the "Bain de la Maison" with a temperature of 52 °; a second griffon springs forth in the river itself, where it is capped beneath a concrete dome.




Image


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 Post subject: Oule
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 3:39 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Here's one for you researchers.
I found this on an old postcard site.

Rennes-les-Bains, Fontaine ferrugineuse de l'Oule

Image

It seems to have existed but where ?

There is no mention of it anywhere, other than André Douzet who says,

".... en compter douze avec la fontaine ferrugineuse de l'Oule très peu citée et qui disparaît bien vite du registre".

"... there are twelve (sources at Rennes-les-Bains) with the ferruginous fountain of the Oule very little mentioned and which disappears very quickly from the register ".



Oule est la francisation du nom commun occitan ola, signifiant 'marmite dépourvue d'anses', ou 'chaudron', du latin olla, aulla 'marmite'. Ce terme, comme son équivalent français marmite, est couramment utilisé dans tout le midi de la France pour désigner des trous d'eau ou des excavations de forme circulaire formés par l'érosion dans des torrents ou d'anciens cours d'eau.

Oule is the frenchification of the common occitan word ola, meaning 'pot without handles', or 'caulron', from latin olla, aulla 'marmite'. This term, like its French equivalent pot, is commonly used throughout the south of France to designate water holes or circular excavations formed by erosion in torrents or ancient streams.


Une marmite du diable ou marmite de géant (ou simplement marmite ou chaudron) est une cavité naturelle percée dans la roche par d'anciens cours d'eau, généralement torrentueux, drainant des galets ou du gravier.
Dans le midi de la France, on utilise plutôt le terme d'origine occitane oule.


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite_du_diable

A giant's kettle, also known as a giant's cauldron or pothole, is a cavity or hole which appears to have been drilled in the surrounding rocks by eddying currents of water bearing stones, gravel, and other detritus.....Similar holes are encountered in riverbeds at the foot of cascades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_kettle


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 5:38 pm 
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Grand Master

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Hi Sheila, Viewing this on Delcampe without the copyright it looks as if the wall on the left has mortar joints. What's your opinion?


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 5:56 pm 
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Queen Bee
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hmm...well spotted.


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 6:05 pm 
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Queen Bee
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So C. G. has noticed that we have masonry top left.
Excellent stuff.
Is this the underside of a bridge arch ?


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 7:34 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
Hi Sheila, Viewing this on Delcampe without the copyright it looks as if the wall on the left has mortar joints. What's your opinion?


I can't find this pic anywhere on my 9 pages of Delcampe, could you send us a link please.


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:05 pm 
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High King

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I can't find this pic anywhere on my 9 pages of Delcampe, could you send us a link please.


Here it is Sheila:

Link: https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collections ... 80943.html

If you click on pic it will enlarge it....


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:15 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Excellent Sandy, thank you.

Look at that masonry structure built on the bedrock, it seems to curve.... and the land rises steeply behind.


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:28 pm 
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High King

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you're welcome.

Im trying to ascertain where its location is .. at least on a bend?


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:40 pm 
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Queen Bee
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The stone structure is not the underside of a bridge arch like it thought before, its upright and curving out, built onto and continuing from the bedrock.
So this is not necessarily down on the river's edge, there's a well worn wide path to the actual water source so it's easy enough to get to. Large stone/cement blocks around the pipe that brings the water to the public.

The photographer is standing really high up looking down on the scene.
The ground above the source rises steeply on both sides.

It's high afternoon in summer and you can see the shade of some trees. The blokes have got sunscreens over their knecks.
How fascinating.


Last edited by Sheila on 19 Jan 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:41 pm 
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High King

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initially i thought it might be up by the cercle, where the fontaine is/was ... part of the brick work
but i dont think so now.

I need to study it more ...

I think its referred to in an old journal/sesa thingy .. i just cant remember where ...maybe if i try and locate that it might say where it is ..


Last edited by bergeredearcadie on 19 Jan 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:44 pm 
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Queen Bee
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la fontaine ferrugineuse de l'Oule
la fontaine ferrugineuse du Cercle.
la fontaine ferrugineuse du Pontet
la source de la Madeleine - très ferrugineuse
la fontaine d'Amour - ferrugineuse acidulée


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:47 pm 
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High King

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well if its iron baring water shouldnt we just follow the source of the other iron baring waters?


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:51 pm 
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Queen Bee
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The iron rich water is everywhere....up stream and down stream.

Is this a lost source or has it changed beyond all recognition and been re-named ?

I can't find a comparison anywhere on the territory....yet.


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 9:54 pm 
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High King

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.yet.

:mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 10:48 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Looks like it might be a photograph of the original source de la Madeleine before they covered over the rocks with concrete.

Cette fontaine, placée sur la rive droite de la Blanque, se trouve à la distance d'un kilomètre à peu près au sud de la station thermale. On la désigne depuis peu d'années sous le nom de la Madeleine ; mais son nom celtique reproduit dans le cadastre, est celui de la fontaine de la Gode.
L'eau de cette source, émergeant avec abondance de la faille inférieure d'une grande roche de grés, est très ferrugineuse,
et d'un goût atramentaire fortement prononcé.
A quelques mètres de cette fontaine, sur le même plan, coule une seconde source, peu abondante et saturée d'un sel de fer qui est le sulfate de peroxyde de fer.


LVLC



Fontaine ferrugineuse de la Gode,

Gode/Godet - coupe, vase, calice


Fontaine ferrugineuse de l'Oule

Oule - bowl, cauldron


Hmm..... and before 1871 it didn't even really have a name.


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 11:47 pm 
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Grand Master

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Sheila wrote:
Looks like it might be a photograph of the original source de la Madeleine before they covered over the rocks with concrete.

Cette fontaine, placée sur la rive droite de la Blanque, se trouve à la distance d'un kilomètre à peu près au sud de la station thermale. On la désigne depuis peu d'années sous le nom de la Madeleine ; mais son nom celtique reproduit dans le cadastre, est celui de la fontaine de la Gode.
L'eau de cette source, émergeant avec abondance de la faille inférieure d'une grande roche de grés, est très ferrugineuse,
et d'un goût atramentaire fortement prononcé.
A quelques mètres de cette fontaine, sur le même plan, coule une seconde source, peu abondante et saturée d'un sel de fer qui est le sulfate de peroxyde de fer.


LVLC



Fontaine ferrugineuse de la Gode,

Gode/Godet - coupe, vase, calice


Fontaine ferrugineuse de l'Oule

Oule - bowl, cauldron


Hmm..... and before 1871 it didn't even really have a name.


I am not convinced that is the solution.

The other old bw photos of Source de la Madeleine doesn't look anything like it.
And you still got the blocks and mortar to the left.
Cliff side is lower on picture than the one at SdlM.

And look at the picture... isn't that grass or pavement up to the right?

Image

Image

Source de la Madeleine:

Image

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