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PostPosted: 25 Dec 2016 5:44 pm 
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".... la citadelle (du Roi) ..... fut dépot de pierres précieuses pour le wisigoths du Vème siècle, d'or et de manuscripts entre 711 et 715 pour les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain.

Circuit: Philippe de Chérisey


The citadel (of the King) ... was a depot of precious stones for the fifth century Visigoths and between 711 and 715 for the gold and manuscripts of the Arabs who settled there the tomb of the Great Roman.


...... les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain.


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PostPosted: 25 Dec 2016 6:29 pm 
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First, Merry Christmas Sheila!

So interesting post, thank you for starting this conversation.

Something I have toyed with is this....

Let's take a hypothetical situation where the good vicar of RLC found some manuscripts, and let us suppose that these questioned Jesus dying on the cross.

These texts while controversial in the Christian world of the 19thC, wouldn't have been to early Christian sects, and importantly to Muslims.
Had these early Islamic texts been translated in Latin or Old French, then they would have been heretical in the eyes of the church. An offence to send anyone to the flames.

To modern eyes, these texts wouldn't be especially controversial either, most people would not care I think. We know a lot more now than we did about the various strands of thought that evolved in the Holy Land from the 1st millennium onwards, thanks to archaeology and historical research.

So the idea of Moorish invaders depositing texts in the region could be feasible.

Just a small thought for Noël


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PostPosted: 25 Dec 2016 8:37 pm 
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Between 711 and 715 is a very strange date for "arabs" to be depositing anything in that area of Septimania.


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PostPosted: 25 Dec 2016 9:58 pm 
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http://www.rhedesium.com/and-the-romans ... -sals.html


"Later, it would be the Christian 'foreigners' who would supplant the Roman religions and that is how a Roman Temple of some importance was set fire to. This all sounds like real events. But where is the evidence that this happened in Rennes-les-Bains? Simply put, there is none!

It is the strangest enigma. Why is Boudet preoccupied with a pagan Temple which was later a Christian church? One associated with the 'Head of the Saviour'? One which was 'set fire to'?

Once again though, from the writings of Philippe de Cherisey, maybe we can glimpse part of this enigmatic story Boudet was trying to tell us about. On p111 of his novel Circuit, Cherisey tells us that

'.... the fortress of the king is in the territory of 16 to 18 hectares indicated by the cadastre [map] under the appellation 'rokko negro'. The centre of Rennes and the pierre du pain are this fortress which is found in the sign of Pisces (poisson/fish) - the treasure that is there is multiple in nature, such as precious stones by the Visigoths of the fifth century, gold and manuscripts by the Arabs who deposited [them in?] the tomb of Grand Roman between 711 and 715. I will add that the personality of the great Roman is not absolutely certain, the general thought was that it was Pompey (i.e. this is what Plantard advocated), but there is also... gerard de nerval, which would lean rather to the Emperor Nerva. This distinction between the two zones of treasure is both fundamental and related to the work of Saunière, who transferred to the fortress what was in the basement(?), but anyone that hasnt experienced the second will not know the first"6.

A little further on Critias [one of the novel's many characters] tells us that;

"on the left bank of the sals, beyond the cemetery, after the main square and the church. Here stood a pagan temple ... fifteen meters high which was set fire to (by?) Charles Martel in the year 737 during his attempted invasion of Languedoc. Also the statue of Isis that comes with the other relics - a head of Mercury and an arm Jupiter holding a cloth, a hand holding an egg. This information comes from the memories of Abbe Delmas - Who, having been responsible for a flow of ink, was also responsible for the flow of even more saliva!"

Here we can see that we return full circle back to Abbe Delmas. We can see Boudet's Cromlech is associated with various treasures - including one deposited by the Arabs in the tomb of the Grand Roman between 711 and 715 AD. [The Grand Roman epitaph has a link with the earlier Pompeius stone cited above as Plantard and Cherisey asserted that this stone came from, or helped locate, the tomb of the Grand Roman]. We see that the pagan Temple, for the Priory copyist was indicated by the head of Dagobert, but the same Temple was, for Boudet indicated by the Head of the Saviour, [and which was linked to his Cromlech]. This Temple had been converted to a Christian church but according to the Priory and also Boudet, was burnt down in the year 719AD or 737AD during the invasion by the Muslims or even Charles Martel of the Languedoc. And the Arabs - who fit the time span - were said to be previously aware of this Temple because they added gold and manuscripts to it - and Cherisey referred to this as the tomb of the Grand Roman!

In amongst this confused data, and to some, just ridiculous child's play and irrelevancies there is only one town that fits all these scenarios. It is indeed the village of Alet-les-Bains in Southern France. We see that the clues had been given to us throughout the obfuscation - when the object of that obfuscation had been the hiding of the intended meaning, making communication confusing, willfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret. The signposts were there though - that of Monsieur Cailhol of Alet, his mysterious heads, the Pompeius stone and the work of Boudet etc.

This is what Fedie has to say about Alet: We summarize our views on this phase of the historical existence of Alet as follows: the Romans, having, as they usually did, adopted, and changed the name of Alektha to Aletha, created in the locality a military station and a beach resort with the addition of a small religious building, and other special kinds of public institutions. Under their rule, the Gallo-Celtic oppidum did not increase and it remained important that the Romans called Alet a villaria - a village.

We know that when the Romans left it was the Visigoths who became the overlords of Septimania in which Alet stood.

However - "The year is 719 - Muslim settlers entered the Iberian Peninsula only seven years ago; they are now laying the foundations of a civilization that will endure for almost 800 years (See Aramco World , January-February 1993). Muslim armies, bolstered by recently-arrived troops from northern and southern Arabia - "Syrians" and "Yemenis" - cross the Pyrenees, probing deep into what they call "the Great Land," al-Ard al-Kabirah. They quickly capture most of Visigothic Septimania, including the once-great Roman centre of Narbonne, known in Arabic as Arbuna. The inhabitants of the city, mostly Arian Christians, are given honorable terms and allowed complete religious freedom by a treaty that resembles one granted to the Spanish Visigoth Theudemia of Murcia. The two documents together show that the Arabs had a very definite settlement policy in mind for the Visigothic possessions of Occitania - southern France - on the other side of the Pyrenees, with more generous and far-sighted conditions than were current in intra-European struggles. With Narbonne and its port secure, al-Samh ibn Malik, governor-general of al-Andalus, moved swiftly to subdue the surrounding area, taking Alet, south of Carcassonne, and Béziers, Agde, Lodève, Maguelonne (Montpellier) and Nîmes in fairly quick succession. By 721, he was ready for a new, decisive and far-reaching campaign" (http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/1 ... itania.htm).

So here we have a solid historical reference on the capture of the village of Alet by a Muslim Army. The year is around 719AD.

"After some initial success leading a large Arab army into Visigothic Septimania and besieging a number of towns and cities including Narbonne, Béziers, Agde, Lodève, Maguelonne (Montpellier) and Nîmes, al-Samh ibn Malik returned to Muslim Iberia to gather more Muslim fighters prior to attacking the strongly defended Aquitanian capital city of Toulouse. He returned to Septimania and on to southeastern Aquitaine with a massive army, siege engines, infantry, horsemen and mercenaries. The siege of Toulouse, with its near-impregnable walls, lasted until early summer. The defenders, short of provisions, were close to breaking when, around June 9, 721, Eudes the Great, the duke of Aquitaine, returned at the head of a large Aquitanian and Frankish force, attacking al-Samh's rear and launching a highly successful encircling movement. A major, decisive battle ensued. Caught between the Toulouse defenders and Eudes's men, al-Samh tried to break out, but was trapped with the bulk of his troops in a place that came to be called by Muslim chroniclers Balat al Shuhada ('the path of the martyrs') where he made a determined last stand as his army was decimated by the Christian forces. Al-Samh himself was critically wounded and died shortly afterwards". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Samh_ib ... l-Khawlani).

Charles Martel is also related to these events.

"The Battle of Toulouse (721) was a victory of an Aquitanian Christian army led by Duke Odo of Aquitaine over an Umayyad Muslim army besieging the city of Toulouse, and led by the governor of Al-Andalus, Al-Samh ibn Malik al-Khawlani. The victory checked the spread of Umayyad control westward from Narbonne into Aquitaine. Toulouse, was then Aquitaine's most important city, and Duke Odo of Aquitaine, also known as Eudes, immediately left to find help when war was near. He asked for the assistance of Charles Martel, who in turn preferred to wait and see rather than help his southern rival. Odo returned three months later—just as the city was about to surrender—and attacked the Muslim invaders on June 9. The victory was essentially the result of a classic enveloping movement by Odo. After Odo originally fled, the Muslims became overconfident, and instead of maintaining strong outer defenses around their siege camp, and continuously scouting, did neither. Thus, when Odo returned, he was able to launch an almost totally surprise attack on the siege force, scattering it with the first attack, and slaughtering units that were resting or fled without weapons or armour. Odo appealed to the Franks for assistance again, which Charles Martel only granted after he agreed to submit to Frankish authority. Some historians believe that the Battle of Toulouse halted the Muslim conquest of Europe even more than the later—and more celebrated—Battle of Tours (October 10, 732, between Tours and Poitiers), but this is highly problematic: for even had the Arabs won at Toulouse, they still would have had to conquer the Franks to retain control of the region. However, nearly all historians agree that the Christian victory at Toulouse was important in a macrohistorical sense: it gave Charles Martel badly needed time to strengthen his grip on power and build the veteran army which stood him in such good stead eleven years later at Tours"( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Toulouse_(721)"


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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 6:52 am 
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Sheila wrote:
Between 711 and 715 is a very strange date for "arabs" to be depositing anything in that area of Septimania.


That was what I thought, when reading it in Wiki. It was just in the beginning of the occupation !

De Cherisey must have known this...


What do you think about it, Sheila ?


regards Hans

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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 8:56 am 
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The reason i posted the original quote is so that we could discuss this sentence from Circuit.

".... la citadelle (du Roi) ..... fut dépot de pierres précieuses pour le wisigoths du Vème siècle, d'or et de manuscripts entre 711 et 715 pour les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain."


Simply put, it reads that the Vth century Visigoths used the citadelle du Roi as a depot for precious stones and between 711 and 715 the "arabs" used the same place as a depot for their gold and manuscripts and that they installed there the tomb of the Great Roman.

Break it down ... it was the "arabs" who established the tomb, they placed it there between 711 and 715.

The "arabs" venerating a Roman !!
This needs to be seriously thought through.


..... and H.P. picked up on why the date is so interesting.


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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 11:27 am 
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If this is an Arab story let's start with the name.


"Ar-Rûmî " = le Romain/the Roman


Rûm (Arabic pronunciation: [ˈruːmˤ]), also transliterated as Roum or Rhum (in Koine Greek "Ρωμιοί" - Romioi, "Romans", in Arabic الرُّومُ ar-Rūm, Persian/Turkish روم Rûm)


The name derives from the Greek word Ρωμιοί, a later form in Greek of Ῥωμαῖοι Rhomaioi: "Romans". It refers to the Byzantine Empire, which was then simply known as the "Roman Empire" and had not yet acquired the designation "Byzantine," an academic term applied only after its dissolution. The city of Rome itself is known in modern Arabic as Rūmā روما (in Classical Arabic Rūmiyah رومية).


The Qur'an includes Surat Ar-Rum (the sura dealing with "the Romans", sometimes translated as "The Byzantines"). The people, known today as Byzantine Greeks, were the inhabitants of the Roman Empire and called themselves Ρωμιοί or Ῥωμαῖοι Rhomaioi, Romans. The term "Byzantine" is a modern designation to describe the Eastern Roman Empire, particularly after the major political restructuring of the seventh and eighth century. The Arabs, therefore, naturally called them "the Rûm", their territory "the land of the Rûm" and the Mediterranean "the Sea of the Rûm."

Deir el-Rûmi, Arabic for "monastery of the Romans,"


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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 7:02 pm 
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Quote:
the treasure that is there is multiple in nature, such as precious stones by the Visigoths of the fifth century, gold and manuscripts by the Arabs who deposited [them in?] the tomb of Grand Roman between 711 and 715.

Why would an army of invading "arabs" be carrying large quantities of gold, and precious manuscripts into what was soon to be a war zone? Is it me, or does that sound odd. Then on top of that, they deposit it right along side of Visigothic treasures...Skip ahead 1100 years, and deCherisey knows all this happened how?


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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 7:25 pm 
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Sheila wrote:

Break it down ... it was the "arabs" who established the tomb, they placed it there between 711 and 715.

The "arabs" venerating a Roman !!

..... and H.P. picked up on why the date is so interesting.


If this were the truth, how did the truth come to light? Delmas, Boudet, deCherisey all quite a long time since an Arab invasion, must be some documentation that supports this claim, these guys got their info somewhere surely, or does it all fit the timeline of conquering peoples in the region.

Wouldn`t the date be a bit early for Arabs in the Rennes region, would they have been south of the Pyrenees?


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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 9:55 pm 
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Wouldn`t the date be a bit early for Arabs in the Rennes region,

Hi CG,

The specific years 711 - 715 are the invasion of Hispania and specifically the taking of Toledo. Arab legends are full of a mysterious sepulchre found at Toledo. Legends also talk of a deposit of jewels and manuscripts. There is a mysterious House of the Bolts.
The invasion of Gaul happened immediately after the invasion of Hispania.
It is not about 711-715 being too early - the Arab take over of the Gothic kingdom/occitania was swift.
We might say today a 'walkover'.
Give or take a few years .... its not early for the Arabs to be there.

Historians write that "...the Muslims crossed North Africa and headed for Spain. They crossed the Straight of Gibraltar in 711, conquered Spain, and, barely pausing for breath, crossed the Pyrenees and conquered Septimania by 720. Ardo was the last of the Visigothic kings, who could not hold them off. The Arab governor al-Hurr worked hard. “For almost three years, by means of fighting and negotiating treaties, he sought control over Gallia Narbonenesis.”. It was not a peaceful conquest. Roger Collins notes that “The first decade following the Arab invasion saw a wave of violence and military activity pass through the Iberian peninsula from north to south and then on across the Pyrenees into the former Visigothic region of Septimania. Certain areas were probably hardly touched; others, such as the Ebro valley and the region around Narbonne may have seen a disproportionate amount of fighting and destruction.”3. Further, “A number of garrison towns had been created by the Arab and Berber troops, including both Cordoba and Narbonne… In the case of Narbonne at least this had been preceded by the slaughter or enslavement of the indigenous population.”

I.E the whole of Septimania was conquered by 720.

I suspect Cherisey is correlating the Toledo events with Occitania for some reason.

Also - the leader of the arab invasion married into gothic line engendering many legends about this take over of a gothic line.

What Cherisey actually said is that the treasure of Rennes was divided into two zones - the cellars of the Queen and the citadel of the king. He wrote that the cellars of the Queen were accesible by the La pierre du pain [here the Tectosages brought the treasure of of Delphi there, gold nuggets and smelted gold'. He said this place was cleared out by Sauniere - who put the lot into the citadel of the king.
This fortress is in the 16-18 hectares of Rokke Negro' - this fortress was a repository of precious stones for the Visigoths of the 5th century
that is the time period 401 - 500.

This is the beginning of the Visogothic kingdom of Alaric - The visigothic kingdom appeared as a kingdom that occupied what southwestern France and the Iberian Peninsula from the 5th to the 8th centuries. So Cherisey is referring to the very origins of the visigothic kingdom. Sometimes referred to as the regnum Tolosanum or Kingdom of Toulouse after its capital in Toulouse. And the treasure is that of Solomon. This same treasure was linked to Toledo and what the arabs found there 711-715. It is linked to the stolen gold of Rome plus Jerusalem.

The concurrent Visigothic kingdom at the time of the Arab later invasion was that of Toledo.

The Arabs brought the treasure with them in long trains on mules.

The rest of Cheriseys statement is - and of gold and manuscripts between 711 - 715 for the Arabs who established the sepulchre of the Grand Roman there.

It is with Toledo we read of a sepulchre, precious stones, manuscripts.

From my reading of Cherisey this sepulchre - he elsewhere correlated it with the same mentioned by Delmas, and also perhaps Boudet, by alluding to the Cromleck of Boudet [which we remember is based around a central tomb] and calling it the citadel of the king by rokko negro [would seem to match the legends from the Aniort family of the standing stone at Pontils facing the 'citadels of the king'] - really it is about the legends of what was deposited in all these mysterious 'sepulchres'.

Cherisey says 'grand roman' because of the Delmas manuscript.

Perhaps also depends on reading of 'sepulchre'

1 : a place of burial : tomb
2 : a receptacle for religious relics especially in an altar

Sepulchre – a cavernous rock-cut space for interment, generally in the Jewish or Christian faiths (cf. Holy Sepulchre)

n.
also sepulcher, c.1200, "tomb, burial place," especially the cave where Jesus was buried outside Jerusalem ( Holy Sepulcher or Saint Sepulcher), from Old French sepulcre "tomb; the Holy Sepulchre" (11c.), from Latin sepulcrum "grave, tomb, place where a corpse is buried," from root of sepelire "to bury, embalm," originally "to perform rituals on a corpse," from PIE *sep-el-yo-, suffixed form of root *sep- "to handle (skillfully), to hold (reverently);" cf. Sanskrit saparyati "honors." No reason for the -ch- spelling, which dates to 13c. Whited sepulchre "hypocrite" is from Matt. xxiii.27.

Also:
http://micmap.org/dicfro/search/gaffiot/sepulcrum

can also mean a pierre tombale avec funeraire inscription


Last edited by bergeredearcadie on 26 Dec 2016 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 9:58 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Between 711 and 715 is a very strange date for "arabs" to be depositing anything in that area of Septimania.


Yes, that's too early by a few years. It is the period when the Arabs invaded and conquered Spain - perhaps someone else was depositing Arab gold and manuscripts in France in advance of the Arab invasion? It's also the three years representing the reign of Dagobert III.

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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2016 10:51 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
If this is an Arab story let's start with the name.


"Ar-Rûmî " = le Romain/the Roman


Rûm (Arabic pronunciation: [ˈruːmˤ]), also transliterated as Roum or Rhum (in Koine Greek "Ρωμιοί" - Romioi, "Romans", in Arabic الرُّومُ ar-Rūm, Persian/Turkish روم Rûm)


The name derives from the Greek word Ρωμιοί, a later form in Greek of Ῥωμαῖοι Rhomaioi: "Romans". It refers to the Byzantine Empire, which was then simply known as the "Roman Empire" and had not yet acquired the designation "Byzantine," an academic term applied only after its dissolution. The city of Rome itself is known in modern Arabic as Rūmā روما (in Classical Arabic Rūmiyah رومية).


The Qur'an includes Surat Ar-Rum (the sura dealing with "the Romans", sometimes translated as "The Byzantines"). The people, known today as Byzantine Greeks, were the inhabitants of the Roman Empire and called themselves Ρωμιοί or Ῥωμαῖοι Rhomaioi, Romans. The term "Byzantine" is a modern designation to describe the Eastern Roman Empire, particularly after the major political restructuring of the seventh and eighth century. The Arabs, therefore, naturally called them "the Rûm", their territory "the land of the Rûm" and the Mediterranean "the Sea of the Rûm."

Deir el-Rûmi, Arabic for "monastery of the Romans,"


Just throwing this out...Mughith al-Rumi - "The Roman" was a freed and converted Greek who was a "lieutenant" of Tariq bin Ziyad, the Muslim commander who first entered Spain. Al-Rumi (or Ar-Rumi) led the capture of Cordoba and was noted for leaving a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims to guard it afterward, establishing a precedent of tolerance.

On just a fun note, the "Pillars of Hercules" are Jebel Musa in Africa and Gibraltar (Jabal Tariq)in Europe, Musa thought to be named for Musa bin Nusayr, the general who followed shortly after Tariq in 711. They were the two primary leaders of the 711-715 invasion, with The Roman as their main officer (led the capture of Cordoba, was sent to the Caliph to announce the victories).

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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 2:26 am 
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Sheila wrote:

Deir el-Rûmi, Arabic for "monastery of the Romans,"




http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/thebescoptic.htm

From the above link,
Quote:
However, there are some remaining Christian monuments in the area, including a few that remain incorporated into the more ancient sites. For example, up on a hill that divides the Valley of the Queens into two branches are the remains of a small monastery that we know little about, other than its name, Deir el-Rumi. It probably received its name from three wells located in the area, which is known as the Valley of Rumi (or the Valley of Three Wells). Within this area are also located a number of smaller tombs with some interesting decorations.


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 2:39 am 
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I wouldn`t always say Rumi means Roman, as in "the Roman". It may translate as Roman, but as Sheila pointed out it also refers to people from the once Roman conquered area`s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi_(disambiguation)


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 2:48 am 
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Caelum wrote:

Just throwing this out...Mughith al-Rumi - "The Roman" was a freed and converted Greek who was a "lieutenant" of Tariq bin Ziyad, the Muslim commander who first entered Spain. Al-Rumi (or Ar-Rumi) led the capture of Cordoba and was noted for leaving a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims to guard it afterward, establishing a precedent of tolerance.

On just a fun note, the "Pillars of Hercules" are Jebel Musa in Africa and Gibraltar (Jabal Tariq)in Europe, Musa thought to be named for Musa bin Nusayr, the general who followed shortly after Tariq in 711. They were the two primary leaders of the 711-715 invasion, with The Roman as their main officer (led the capture of Cordoba, was sent to the Caliph to announce the victories).


I hope your not suggesting/hinting at Mughith al-Rumi as being the "Grand Roman" of RlB...hopefully I put to much thought in your post.. :|


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 7:34 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote ".... a receptacle for religious relics especially in an altar."

It's worth to think about it.

But it turns my "building" upside down....

We believe, that the Templars found a secret knowledge under the temple in Jerusalem.

The holy land was in the hand of the Arabs before the crusade.
Let's say, the Arabs have also found this knowledge in 637, when they took Jerusalem.
In the early VII th century, the Arabs became a shooting star in the history, just as the Templars 400 years later.


regards Hans

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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 11:11 am 
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Quote:
".... la citadelle (du Roi) ..... fut dépot de pierres précieuses pour le wisigoths du Vème siècle, d'or et de manuscripts entre 711 et 715 pour les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain.


The citadel (of the King) ... was a depot of precious stones for the fifth century Visigoths and between 711 and 715 for the gold and manuscripts of the Arabs who settled there the tomb of the Great Roman.



There is a lot of information to be garnered from this single sentence.


The citadelle du Roi was used as a depot by different ruling factions as a deposit for their treasures.
Therefore the citadelle du Roi was a known as a safe place to hide stuff.

The Visigoths used it in the Vth century, during the early part of their reign.
(Septimania was the western region of the Roman province of Gallia Narbonensis that passed under the control of the Visigoths in 462, when Septimania was ceded to their king, Theodoric II.)

This place was used between 711 and 715 for the gold and manuscripts of the Arabs who installed the tomb of the Great Roman there.

The "Arabs" knew about this citadelle du Roi .
They used it to store gold & manuscripts in.
They interred the "Great Roman" inside it.
This "Great Roman" was therefore classed as seriously important and valuable.
The time frame given is 711 - 715.


Therefore the citadelle du Roi was either seen by the "Arabs" as a burial place in general ie. it was a necropolis, or the place fitted the bill as a special resting place for their "Great Roman".


So who is this mysterious person that the "Arabs" laid to rest in the carefully guarded citadel (or fortress as it's sometimes called) in the back & beyond of Septimania ?

There might be a contender.


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 12:26 pm 
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In the year 700, Wittiza was anointed king of the Visigoths; his is the last entry in the Chronica Regum Visigothorum, the Visigothic king list.


Wittiza had three sons:

Achila/Agila/Akhila
Ardo/Ardabast
Almund/Olmund,



After the death of Wittiza, Hispania was divided between two rival claimaints: the senate and the church's contender Roderic in Spain and the rebel - Achila II, Wittiza's son, in the north in Septimania (Tarraconensis and Narbonensis).
Arab sources speak of a civil war.



Achila II was the Visigothic king of a divided Hispania from 710 or 711 until his death (died circa 714). The kingdom he ruled was restricted to Septimania, the northeast of the old Hispanic kingdom .

Achilla II worked with the Arabs and the Moors to overthrow the usurper Roderic.

Achila II might have been a traitor to the Visigoths who brought "ruin upon Hispania", but he was a hero to the Arabs.
He ruled and minted his coinage from Narbonne and died within the time frame of our research.


Achila II was called Romulus by later Muslim chronicles
"l'un des fils de Wittiza, appelé Romulus par les chroniques musulmanes postérieures"


https://books.google.fr/books?id=E9LJjM ... II&f=false


https://books.google.fr/books?id=uWt8Ag ... us&f=false

In the Chronicle of Alfonso III, the "sons of Wittiza" are treated as traitors who helped deliver Hispania to the Moors. According to the Rotensis version of the Chronicle of Alfonso III, Wittiza had three sons: Olmund, Romulus, and Ardabast (Artabasdus). Olmund is a Gothic name, Romulus is Roman, and Ardabast is Greek (originally Armenian).

According to Ibn al-Qutiyya the last Visigothic king of a united Hispania died before his three sons: Almund, Romulo and Ardabast, reached majority. Their mother was regent at Toledo, but Roderic, army chief of staff, staged a rebellion, capturing Cordova. Of all the possible outcomes he chose to impose a joint rule over distinct jurisdictions on the true heirs. Evidence of a division of some sort can be found in the distribution of coins imprinted with the name of each king and in the king lists. Romulo's kingdom is securely placed to the northeast, while Roderic seems to have taken the rest. Romulo/Romulus is undoubtedly Achila II of the coins and chronicles, who is stated by some to have been the son of Wittiza.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achila_II


Last edited by Sheila on 27 Dec 2016 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 1:53 pm 
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Achila II / Romulus - as the rightful king and heir to the Visigoth kingdom.

"Two continuations of the Chronicon Regum Visigothorum record Achila's reign of three years following immediately upon Wittiza's. It has even been suggested by some scholars that Achila was in fact Wittiza's son and successor and that Roderic had tried to usurp the throne from him, even that he had been a co-ruler with Wittiza since 708."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achila_II


En 710, le roi de Tolède, Achila, dépossédé par Rodrigue, duc de Bétique, s’enfuit au Maroc où, sans doute, il sollicite l’aide des Musulmans.

In 710, the king of Toledo, Achila, dispossessed by Rodric, duke of Betic, fled to Morocco where, no doubt, he solicited the help of the Muslims.

http://berlemon.net/prepahistoire/resso ... ahomet.pdf


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 2:26 pm 
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Some of the detail and background is disputed or mingled with legend, but it is clearly the case that the Visigothic unitary kingdom appears to have been divided in some way between Roderic in the center/south and Achila II in the north-east: a civil war never openly fought because of the presence of the Arab/Berber armies from 711 onwards.

Another aspect of the Achila/Roderic contest is whether the former (Achila II) might have been the rightful successor.

There is a possibility that Ardo was elected king after Achila (albeit briefly) because he was a relative of Wittiza, as Achila's followers supported a hereditary monarchy. Members of the royal family were said to have fled to Septimania: a belief that gathered strength in years to come.
The Visigoths may have sought to rekindle a royal line in exile.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=1FKiAg ... hs&f=false


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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 3:37 pm 
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Quote:
".... la citadelle (du Roi) ..... fut dépot de pierres précieuses pour le wisigoths du Vème siècle, d'or et de manuscripts entre 711 et 715 pour les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain.

The citadel (of the King) ... was a depot of precious stones for the fifth century Visigoths and between 711 and 715 for the gold and manuscripts of the Arabs who settled there the tomb of the Great Roman.



So in the sentence above we see that the fortress, the citadelle du Roi was the depository of the royal Visigoths from the Vth century until 715, the era of the last legitimate King(s) of the Visigoths in exile).


Last edited by Sheila on 27 Dec 2016 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2016 5:02 pm 
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Great research, Sheila.

If there ever was a citadelle du Roi here, I refuse to believe that Roko Negro was the place.

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PostPosted: 28 Dec 2016 4:17 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
".... la citadelle (du Roi) ..... fut dépot de pierres précieuses pour le wisigoths du Vème siècle, d'or et de manuscripts entre 711 et 715 pour les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain.

Circuit: Philippe de Chérisey


The citadel (of the King) ... was a depot of precious stones for the fifth century Visigoths and between 711 and 715 for the gold and manuscripts of the Arabs who settled there the tomb of the Great Roman.


...... les arabes qui y installèrent la sépulture du Grand Romain.


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Sheila
Post subject: Re: Et Marsyas in Arcadia egoPostPosted: 12 Jan 2016 1:44 pm
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I would like to see proof of Visigoths in Rennes-les-Bains...anybody got anything other than heresay?


Well, this is a great question. Where are the Visigothic coins, jewerly,weapons...etc. I don`t deny the Saracens being in the area, they did find a few coins or medals. Shouldn`t there be evidence of both these peoples living in the area, who deposits precious items, and doesn`t set up a village or something to protect the cache. In theory the Visigoths would have been around here for nearly 300 years until the Saracen invasion. 300 years and no trace of them? Same thoughts on the Saracens, shouldn`t there be graves, and weapons, belt buckles..something.

It`s such a great story of treasure, I want to buy it. But the lack of evidence makes it hard. I keep getting the feeling deCherisey is repeating factual events, and then adding in his own twist, it`s almost like he is on a mission to make RlC/RlB some magical mystical place, kinda like Boudet does with his Cromlech.


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 Post subject: The invisible Vesi.
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2016 6:05 pm 
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The Gothic myth was of great use to the different monarchies that succeeded after the Arabic invasion of 711.
Visigothic kings were adopted as models by one age after another, from the rudimentary kingdom of Asturias in the IX century to the world-monarchy of Spain under the Catholic Kings and the Habsburgs.


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PostPosted: 29 Dec 2016 7:36 am 
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However what one discovers when reading about the history of this time, is that the remaining Visigoths who refused to become Islamist, rallied around the last of their royal lineage and retreated back to the mountains of Septimania.

The Christianised Roman Visigoths, the Jews and the people of the Visigothic Kingdom of Hispania had been given a choice, be taxed heavily for being a "foreigner" or join Islam...and that's what most people did south of the Pyrenees.

And we see that these rebel Visigoths under Achila II were actually the first wave of The Reconquista (the Christian reconquest of the Iberian peninsula from the Moors) before the hero of the time, Pelagius, stirred up the people of the mountains and, kicking the caliphate's arse, established the independent Christian Kingdom of Asturias.


Last edited by Sheila on 29 Dec 2016 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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