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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2017 11:52 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Rennes les Bains and Hierapolis in classical Phrygia tick all the same boxes.

The Phrygians built a temple, probably in the first half of the 3rd century BC. This temple, originally used by the citizens of the nearby town of Laodicea, would later form the centre of Hierapolis.
The hot springs have been used as a spa since the 2nd century BC, with many patrons retiring or dying there.

Hierapolis became a healing centre where doctors used the thermal springs as a treatment for their patients.

Thousands of people came to benefit from the medicinal properties of the hot springs. New building projects were started: two Roman baths, a gymnasium, several temples, a main street with a colonnade, and a fountain at the hot spring.

Especially in The Roman Empire period, Hierapolis and its site were a health center. In those years, thousands of people used to come to the baths, of which there are more than 15, and they found their remedy in those baths.

The temple of Apollo was deliberately built over an active fault. This fault was called the Plutonium which we went into in detail over on another thread. It was the oldest religious centre of the native community.

Beyond the city walls and meadow, following the main colonnaded road and passing the outer baths (thermae extra muros), an extensive necropolis extends for over 2 kilometres on both sides of the old road.
The large necropolis is filled with sarcophagi, most famously that of Marcus Aurelius Ammianos.

People who came for medical treatment to Hierapolis in ancient times and the native people of the city buried their dead in tombs of several types according to their traditions and socio-economic status.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis

This to my mind is what we have at Rennes les Bains.


I hear you, I see it.
But, still torn.

What's bugging me is the lack of physical evidence, things that I can see with my own eyes. What is there except for, perhaps, a piece of a bridge and some buried floor over at the pool? Hints of a cadastre that fit well with Roman planning? Stories of coins, ceramics and a ruined building that someone once noticed on a field and took for Roman...?
No modern archeologist ever examined any findings...

Some of the features of the Romans would be very difficult to go missing even if a layer of mud covered them.
We should see traces of a theatre. If there was a bath, of even minor importance, there must have been a theatre.
A semicircular or circular location, shape, pattern. Even if the stones have been removed. Unless there's a house built upon it. There's only one semicircular place that I know of in RLB, and it's really turned the wrong way, so it can't be it.
* EDIT: See the Cercle-thread concerning a theatre.

If there was a large necropolis like the one at Hierapolis, wouldn't discoveries still be made in RLB?
In fact, when was the last discovery made? Any recent finds, or even remotely recent findings, the ones you would expect to find in a Roman thermal Spa-town? Something should have turned up the last 40+ years? (except for that floor).

What the Romans built were meant to last. Where is it? Not everything would have been built down in the very bottom part of the valley. Something more should show. And that's disturbing, to say the least.

Or can it really go missing? On the other hand perhaps I am too optimistic of the everlasting buildings of Rome? Maybe it's not so strange that nothing can be found, even though it actually was there long ago?

I guess we'll all keep looking for something...
Torn.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017 12:23 am 
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rain wrote:

Did you happen to mention it was supposed to represent a burial 700 years after by Arabs that identify Roman baths in Narbonne?

Whoops, I must have left that part out.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017 1:19 am 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Rennes les Bains and Hierapolis in classical Phrygia tick all the same boxes.

The Phrygians built a temple, probably in the first half of the 3rd century BC. This temple, originally used by the citizens of the nearby town of Laodicea, would later form the centre of Hierapolis.
The hot springs have been used as a spa since the 2nd century BC, with many patrons retiring or dying there.

Hierapolis became a healing centre where doctors used the thermal springs as a treatment for their patients.

Thousands of people came to benefit from the medicinal properties of the hot springs. New building projects were started: two Roman baths, a gymnasium, several temples, a main street with a colonnade, and a fountain at the hot spring.

Especially in The Roman Empire period, Hierapolis and its site were a health center. In those years, thousands of people used to come to the baths, of which there are more than 15, and they found their remedy in those baths.

The temple of Apollo was deliberately built over an active fault. This fault was called the Plutonium which we went into in detail over on another thread. It was the oldest religious centre of the native community.

Beyond the city walls and meadow, following the main colonnaded road and passing the outer baths (thermae extra muros), an extensive necropolis extends for over 2 kilometres on both sides of the old road.
The large necropolis is filled with sarcophagi, most famously that of Marcus Aurelius Ammianos.

People who came for medical treatment to Hierapolis in ancient times and the native people of the city buried their dead in tombs of several types according to their traditions and socio-economic status.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis

This to my mind is what we have at Rennes les Bains.


I hear you, I see it.
But, still torn.

What's bugging me is the lack of physical evidence, things that I can see with my own eyes. What is there except for, perhaps, a piece of a bridge and some buried floor over at the pool? Hints of a cadastre that fit well with Roman planning? Stories of coins, ceramics and a ruined building that someone once noticed on a field and took for Roman...?
No modern archeologist ever examined any findings...

Some of the features of the Romans would be very difficult to go missing even if a layer of mud covered them.
We should see traces of a theatre. If there was a bath, of even minor importance, there must have been a theatre.
A semicircular or circular location, shape, pattern. Even if the stones have been removed. Unless there's a house built upon it. There's only one semicircular place that I know of in RLB, and it's really turned the wrong way, so it can't be it.
* EDIT: See the Cercle-thread concerning a theatre.

If there was a large necropolis like the one at Hierapolis, wouldn't discoveries still be made in RLB?
In fact, when was the last discovery made? Any recent finds, or even remotely recent findings, the ones you would expect to find in a Roman thermal Spa-town? Something should have turned up the last 40+ years? (except for that floor).

What the Romans built were meant to last. Where is it? Not everything would have been built down in the very bottom part of the valley. Something more should show. And that's disturbing, to say the least.

Or can it really go missing? On the other hand perhaps I am too optimistic of the everlasting buildings of Rome? Maybe it's not so strange that nothing can be found, even though it actually was there long ago?

I guess we'll all keep looking for something...
Torn.

I agree, but then again I`m not sure RlB would have been nearly as popular or large as most Roman spa`s either.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017 1:36 am 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
rain wrote:

Did you happen to mention it was supposed to represent a burial 700 years after by Arabs that identify Roman baths in Narbonne?

Whoops, I must have left that part out.


Sextus Pompeius doesn't just venerate a God, he becomes one. So it would not be an ordinary cippe or votive offering. It's measurements would be considered part of the cadre of Roman standards.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017 1:48 am 
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Sheila wrote:
This whole circular part of the valley is an ancient necroplis ... and within it, the original healing sanctuary, temple and thermes

Has there ever been documentation of any pre Roman artifacts found?


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017 9:41 am 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
I agree, but then again I`m not sure RlB would have been nearly as popular or large as most Roman spa`s either.


Perhaps the valley wasn't more than the Roman baths, with a population hub elsewhere, reasonably close within a few kilometers. However, findings of that is missing too?

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017 11:08 pm 
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Hierapolis necropolis.

Image

Image

Image

Image

MONTFERRAND
Now, the only thing that remotely looks like that in RLB is the water station up at Montferrand:

Image

I am assuming this Montferrand water station is made in a different style, from a different time... semi-modern?
However, there are some spooky similarities too. See the decorations, the square hole.
And one has to admire the large pieces of stone (if that is the material) used at the Montferrand water station. Usually, when you see old stones at ruins and older buildings around here, the stones just seem smaller and less rectangular.
If I got it all right, the necropolis of Hierapolis js located far up on the hillsides, which reminds a little of the Montferrand location in correspondence to RLB.
There are some sunken tombs at Hierapolis that kind of has the same shape as the Montferrand water station too.

Well, anyway. If there are no tombs in RLB like the ones at Hierapolis, but we still assume RLB had a Roman necropolis, maybe there was a reason the Romans didn't build tombs out above ground. If the entire necropolis was located underground instead (like suggested so many times).

So which location is the one that makes most sense, if YOU could choose freely?

Oh, and does anyone know where the urns were found?

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 8:48 am 
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Yes,

Read the books.
Read this forum.
Read Sandy's blogs.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 9:19 am 
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Yes,

Read the books.
Read this forum.
Read Sandy's blogs.


I do understand your frustrations - when no one reads the old books and journals and history etc, from those that were there on the ground at the time.
It's a shame - because it is an absolute pleasure to discover the past of our favourite area through this route.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 11:55 am 
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.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 12:33 pm 
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I don't mean to offend anyone - sorry if I did ...


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 1:46 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
I don't mean to offend anyone - sorry if I did ...


Of course not, you didn't! At least not me.

When can we look forward to a new blogpost?
It's been a while! 8)

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 7:09 pm 
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Hi Barbarian

I am looking into a history of RLB. Its difficult because there is not much to go on.

Having said that, im quite enjoying getting lost in the ancient authors like Pliny etc talking of the absolute gold mine the area was
for the ancients.

Some estimates suggest they mined up to 65 tonnes of gold over a 500 year period! Amazing.


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 9:14 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Hi Barbarian

I am looking into a history of RLB. Its difficult because there is not much to go on.


Agree. And it could be said about the entire affair. Too little to go on – and at the very same time – too much to go on.

bergeredearcadie wrote:
Having said that, im quite enjoying getting lost in the ancient authors like Pliny etc talking of the absolute gold mine the area was for the ancients.

Some estimates suggest they mined up to 65 tonnes of gold over a 500 year period! Amazing.


And the digging for gold in the region carried on into modern days?

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 10:44 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
...in the hilltop fortress of Al-Bedouin, aka Albedun, aka Le Bezu.


I've always been under the impression that Albedun (or Albedunum) was, like Blanchefort, more likely to represent a White Fortress. Albedu in Asturian for example translates to albedo. All the various albions, albas, albinos, albedos seem to relate to whiteness, reflection, shining. There is an alternative etymology meaning the world above, hill, heights.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 10:59 pm 
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Caelum wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
...in the hilltop fortress of Al-Bedouin, aka Albedun, aka Le Bezu.


I've always been under the impression that Albedun (or Albedunum) was, like Blanchefort, more likely to represent a White Fortress. Albedu in Asturian for example translates to albedo. All the various albions, albas, albinos, albedos seem to relate to whiteness, reflection, shining. There is an alternative etymology meaning the world above, hill, heights.


Absolutely.
I only offered an alternative way to see it, one corresponding to the invaders. Outside the box.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 11:00 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Rennes les Bains and Hierapolis in classical Phrygia tick all the same boxes.

The Phrygians built a temple, probably in the first half of the 3rd century BC. This temple, originally used by the citizens of the nearby town of Laodicea, would later form the centre of Hierapolis.
The hot springs have been used as a spa since the 2nd century BC, with many patrons retiring or dying there.

Hierapolis became a healing centre where doctors used the thermal springs as a treatment for their patients.

Thousands of people came to benefit from the medicinal properties of the hot springs. New building projects were started: two Roman baths, a gymnasium, several temples, a main street with a colonnade, and a fountain at the hot spring.

Especially in The Roman Empire period, Hierapolis and its site were a health center. In those years, thousands of people used to come to the baths, of which there are more than 15, and they found their remedy in those baths.

The temple of Apollo was deliberately built over an active fault. This fault was called the Plutonium which we went into in detail over on another thread. It was the oldest religious centre of the native community.

Beyond the city walls and meadow, following the main colonnaded road and passing the outer baths (thermae extra muros), an extensive necropolis extends for over 2 kilometres on both sides of the old road.
The large necropolis is filled with sarcophagi, most famously that of Marcus Aurelius Ammianos.

People who came for medical treatment to Hierapolis in ancient times and the native people of the city buried their dead in tombs of several types according to their traditions and socio-economic status.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis

This to my mind is what we have at Rennes les Bains.


Except Hierapolis was primarily Greek and I understand that makes a difference in language if nothing else. .


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017 11:21 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
Caelum wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
...in the hilltop fortress of Al-Bedouin, aka Albedun, aka Le Bezu.


I've always been under the impression that Albedun (or Albedunum) was, like Blanchefort, more likely to represent a White Fortress. Albedu in Asturian for example translates to albedo. All the various albions, albas, albinos, albedos seem to relate to whiteness, reflection, shining. There is an alternative etymology meaning the world above, hill, heights.


Absolutely.
I only offered an alternative way to see it, one corresponding to the invaders. Outside the box.


And there's other ways to see it too.
Maybe a reach but just on the other side of the Pyrenees, there's a town named Albelda.
The name comes from al-balda in Arabic, which would mean "village".

Area was inhabited by the Ilergete tribe long time ago. The town was founded by the muslim invaders if I understand it correctly?

So perhaps an Arabic origin for the name Albedun cannot be ruled out completely?

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 12:17 am 
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Sheila wrote:
Rennes les Bains and Hierapolis in classical Phrygia tick all the same boxes.

The Phrygians built a temple, probably in the first half of the 3rd century BC. This temple, originally used by the citizens of the nearby town of Laodicea, would later form the centre of Hierapolis.
The hot springs have been used as a spa since the 2nd century BC, with many patrons retiring or dying there.

Hierapolis became a healing centre where doctors used the thermal springs as a treatment for their patients.

Thousands of people came to benefit from the medicinal properties of the hot springs. New building projects were started: two Roman baths, a gymnasium, several temples, a main street with a colonnade, and a fountain at the hot spring.

Especially in The Roman Empire period, Hierapolis and its site were a health center. In those years, thousands of people used to come to the baths, of which there are more than 15, and they found their remedy in those baths.

The temple of Apollo was deliberately built over an active fault. This fault was called the Plutonium which we went into in detail over on another thread. It was the oldest religious centre of the native community.

Beyond the city walls and meadow, following the main colonnaded road and passing the outer baths (thermae extra muros), an extensive necropolis extends for over 2 kilometres on both sides of the old road.
The large necropolis is filled with sarcophagi, most famously that of Marcus Aurelius Ammianos.

People who came for medical treatment to Hierapolis in ancient times and the native people of the city buried their dead in tombs of several types according to their traditions and socio-economic status.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis

This to my mind is what we have at Rennes les Bains.


Hierapolis does have this one rather nice feature which I thoroughly enjoyed...

http://blog.ishine365.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/pamukkale-in-turkey-photo-hd.jpg

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 8:59 am 
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Yup, i swam there after exploring the tombs.


Image


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017 2:46 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Yup, i swam there after exploring the tombs.


Image


Well that explains it all...all those fumes... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017 5:00 pm 
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Nice.
Seems like a place well worth a visit.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017 5:08 pm 
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Watch out for the Plutonion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploutonion_at_Hierapolis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploutonion

It's all to do with the fault lines, where they start/end and where they cross over.
Our main point of interest are the three that run through Rennes-les-Bains....the main one running SW - NE that has slipped, & the two that cross it, one at les Bains Doux and the other one running under under you know where.
Their Plutonion would have been centered here, right under the Temple.


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017 12:23 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Hi Barbarian

I am looking into a history of RLB. Its difficult because there is not much to go on.

Having said that, im quite enjoying getting lost in the ancient authors like Pliny etc talking of the absolute gold mine the area was
for the ancients.

Some estimates suggest they mined up to 65 tonnes of gold over a 500 year period! Amazing.


Could you please expand on this, where do these extraordinary numbers come from?

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