Arcadia Discussion Zone

Forums dedicated to history's mysteries, Rennes-le-Château and beyond…

Read the Arcadia Forum House Rules

It is currently 22 Sep 2017 4:53 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2016 12:35 am 
Offline
High King

Joined: 07 Nov 2006 11:57 pm
Posts: 4635
A major archaeological discovery attests to the establishment of a Jewish community in the region of Rennes-Les-Bains / Rennes-Le-Château as soon as the first centuries of our era. A Mikveh (Jewish ritual bath of purification) dating from the iii century was exhumed to antugnac.

Image[/URL]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2016 6:34 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 11245
Location: France
Now that is interesting, they've had these remains classed as Gallo-Roman up until now.

http://www.sesa-aude.fr/Le-19-octobre-2013


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2016 9:34 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 11245
Location: France
Apart from "the object" that they've found, I'd like to know why they class this as a Mikvé and not as a paleochristian baptismal pool.

L'objet en question est en effet porteur des principes fondamentaux de la kabbale dont on sait qu'ils furent rapportés bien plus tard, au XIIIe siècle, dans notre grande région, depuis Gérone et Narbonne. Mais le site de Croux pourrait laisser penser qu'ils avaient été révélés dès le IIIe siècle…


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2016 6:06 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 1184
Location: Santa Cruz
Can't help being reminded of this from Holy Blood, Holy Grail:

" A mysterious pool, once in the centre of a triangular field at
Coume-Sourde, near Rennes le Chateau and close to La Valdieu
- The Valley of God. It fulfils the requirements for a mikveh - a
bath of ritual purification."

I also remember that the Church of Croux was one of Lincoln's
geometric points and that Sauniere was priest there temporarily
in 1890 and again in 1909 (after Gaudissard's death).

_________________
"The earlier culture will become a heap of rubble and finally a heap of ashes, but spirit will hover over the ashes."

Ludwig Wittgenstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016 9:09 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 11245
Location: France
Quote:
A major archaeological discovery attests to the establishment of a Jewish community in the region of Rennes-Les-Bains / Rennes-Le-Château


Attests !

How does the discovery of an early IV cent. babtistery at Croux attest to the "establishment of a Jewish community in the region of Rennes-Les-Bains / Rennes-Le-Château".

I'm amazed that no one wants to discuss this.
Why is this not classed as a paléochristian baptistery.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016 11:48 am 
Offline
Acolyte
User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2009 6:26 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Rennes-les-Bains
Sheila wrote:
Quote:
A major archaeological discovery attests to the establishment of a Jewish community in the region of Rennes-Les-Bains / Rennes-Le-Château


Attests !

How does the discovery of an early IV cent. babtistery at Croux attest to the "establishment of a Jewish community in the region of Rennes-Les-Bains / Rennes-Le-Château".

I'm amazed that no one wants to discuss this.
Why is this not classed as a paléochristian baptistery.



[...] un site découvert en 2013, avec sur les lieux un gisant et un objet se rapportant à la kabbale ...bla bla...
dunno...probably this is the reason :|

_________________
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ci-gît
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016 12:50 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 11245
Location: France
Thanks for the reply, and yes I got that bit.... but one Jewish body does not a Mikvé make.

The body in question could have been a Juif in the pay of the Roman army (before the Christian church solidified its power in the Roman hierarchy there was a substantial Jewish presence in the auxiliary, or limitani, units that the Romans used as frontier guards) .... or he could have just been a Juif who had settled and died in the area.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016 1:30 pm 
Offline
Grand Master

Joined: 12 Aug 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Switzerland
Personally I think we do not have enough information to judge this remotly. But: is it totally impossible that such a Mikvé would have existed there? I tried over many years to get info about the history of the jews in the region. Sadly only very very little material available or I talked with the wrong persons...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ci-gît
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016 1:14 am 
Offline
Emperor
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2009 10:28 pm
Posts: 5412
Location: NA
Sheila wrote:
Thanks for the reply, and yes I got that bit.... but one Jewish body does not a Mikvé make.

The body in question could have been a Juif in the pay of the Roman army (before the Christian church solidified its power in the Roman hierarchy there was a substantial Jewish presence in the auxiliary, or limitani, units that the Romans used as frontier guards) .... or he could have just been a Juif who had settled and died in the area.


I tend to agree with fmh999 in that where we are prevents us from making the adaquate enquires.
BUT I did look at it and these are the things I would question.

What is to be gained by making this site a Jewish Mikve and the answer would be money and sponsorship.
If they claim it's a Mikve from the 3rd century then it predates other Mikve's by centuries thus making it the oldest in Europe.

It's a relatively new concept at that time in that it was only codified around the first century BCE according to classical rabbinical literatures and readings. I guess that's the reference to Kabbalistic principles.
There are required to be several exacting measurements that must be adhered to as well as it's link to "living water."
One thing I noticed is that it is very much a women's bathing ritual which may or may not mean something back then.

Anyway you can read all this and more online.
So let's look at another article.

http://www.lindependant.fr/2016/09/18/u ... 258817.php
Quote:
A SMALL STEP TOWARDS CROUX AND A BIG STEP FOR HERITAGE OF HUMANITY

September 18 at 17:00 by Cathy MERCIER
Everyone will agree to say that when we have among others a degree of empowerment to direct research, which is also an associate professor, doctor of Aesthetics and Philosophy of Art University in Paris I Sorbonne and what is more, honorary dean of the University Picardie Jules Verne in the research and discoveries are part of the daily lot of students students who continues to believe in their investigations ... Yet when Serge Bismuth just in our region here only 3 years to visit a friend, he did not doubt that his skills would be critical and constitute the culmination somehow lifelong knowledge and research in their chosen field.

The archaeological site of Croux, dating from the 3rd century house the oldest "mikveh" of Europe (the baptismal pool for Jewish ritual baths)
The conference he held on the occasion of the days of Saturday and Sunday at Heritage Croux hamlet on the baptismal pool has given an exceptional dimension to this village which now has about twenty barely inhabitants.
Indeed, blending Heritage and Citizenship it was easy to university to restore the "Mikveh" discovered its importance. President of People and Pierre de Croux, Serge Bismuth and his members do not hesitate to date from the 3rd century, the archaeological site of Croux as, say clearly, now oldest monument discovered in Europe.
A recumbent found it possible to date precisely the carbon burial 14-305 AD. So it is here, precisely for a particular period in the history of religions from which began to open what contemporary scholars call "the crossroads", that is to say, separation of Jewish Christians (early Christians) and Jews.

Foundations made ​​of cyclopean blocks
The wall is the aerial part adjoining the building seems to be the remnant of a wall or the wall of a religious monument has undergone the ravages of time, however, its particularity remains intact. Its foundations, made of granite blocks articulated mortise and tenon joints are unique in their kind and can well ask us highlight Serge Bismuth "What was true of this construction such penalty, except for last? Moreover architecture moves us, the apse is strangely positioned relative to the rest of the monument .. "

Under the earth, a magnificent calade ...
"It seems indeed, Bernard Rey will add architect who operated on many coasts statements on embankments, Croux that has housed everything a well structured very complex, probably a city as the architecture is remarkable. Only the religious monument would witness today "
It is indeed fortuitously during a release embankments in 2013 that the owner of the plot was a curious basement provided.
It was the precious objects found lying next to, first introduced to Serge Bismuth, which allowed him to understand the extreme importance on the site Croux. Indeed, this object found lying next to bears fundamental principles of Kabbalah known to were reported much later, from the thirteenth century in our great region, from Girona and Narbonne. But we should think now that they had already been revealed to Croux from the third century ...

Today the DNA sequencing is a priority.

The members will all agree that the priority is certainly their research are recognized and disclosed to the world, but that the sequencing of DNA lying would fail to determine the ethnicity of this man with the strangely codified position. It's a kind of appeal to people wanting to help the treasurer Gerard Céfaï then launches any support (patron) to that point is the amount needed for this DNA analysis (and, perhaps, will cover maintenance costs and site protection, and to welcome even more visitors).

A new era for the small hamlet of Croux, who could become the next few years ethnological interest center, ethnographic and archaeological capital, globally recognized ...
Cathy MERCIER


Association Stone and People Croux 1 Templar Street CROUX ANTUGNAC 11190 (which will forward mail to mercier.catherine11@gmail.com) for sending gifts the certificate for the tax deduction will be sent by return mail (recognized association utilities).


Overview Mikveh and surrounding wall (Cathy Mercier)

The foundations consist of syclopéens blocks (Cathy Mercier)

The oldest "Mikveh" Europe (Cathy Mercier)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
UN PETIT PAS VERS CROUX ET UN GRAND PAS POUR LE PATRIMOINE DE L'HUMANITE

Le 18 septembre à 17h00 par Cathy MERCIER
Chacun s'accordera à dire que lorsque l'on possède entre autre un diplôme d'habilitation à diriger des recherches, que l'on est aussi professeur agrégé, docteur en esthétique et philosophie de l'Art de l'université à Paris I Sorbonne et qui plus est, doyen honoraire de l'université Jules Verne en Picardie, les recherches et les découvertes font partie du lot quotidien des élèves étudiants qui n'ont cesse de croire en leurs investigations… Pourtant, lorsque Serge Bismuth vient dans notre région voilà à peine 3 ans visiter un ami, il ne se doutait pas que ses compétences seraient déterminantes et constitueraient l'aboutissement en quelque sorte de toute une vie connaissances et de recherches dans son domaine de prédilection.

Le site archéologique de Croux, datant du 3e siècle abriterait le plus vieux « mikvé » d'Europe (piscine baptismale destinée aux bains rituels juifs)
La conférence qu'il tenait à l'occasion des journées du patrimoine samedi et dimanche au hameau de Croux sur la piscine baptismale a permis de donner une dimension exceptionnelle à ce hameau qui compte aujourd'hui une vingtaine d' habitants à peine.
En effet, en mêlant Patrimoine et Citoyenneté il fut facile à l'universitaire de redonner au « Mikvé » découvert toute son importance. Président de Pierre et Gens de Croux, Serge Bismuth et les membres de son association n'hésitent pas à dater du 3e siècle, le site archéologique de Croux comme étant, disons le clairement, plus ancien monument actuellement découvert en Europe.
Un gisant découvert a permis de dater très précisément la sépulture au carbone 14 à 305 après Jésus-Christ. Il s'agit donc là, très précisément d'une période particulière dans l'histoire des religions à partir de laquelle commença à s'ouvrir ce que les chercheurs contemporains nomment « la croisée des chemins», c'est-à-dire la séparation des judéo-chrétiens (les premiers chrétiens) et des juifs.

Des soubassements constitués de blocs cyclopéens
Le mur qui constitue la partie aérienne jouxtant l'édifice semble être le vestige d'un mur d'enceinte ou la paroi d'un monument religieux ayant subi les assauts du temps, pourtant, sa particularité reste intacte. Ses soubassements, constitués de blocs de granit articulés en tenons et mortaises sont uniques dans leur genre et l'on peut bien se demander nous soulignera Serge Bismuth « Qu'est ce qui valait pour cette construction une telle peine, si ce n'est pour durer ? Par ailleurs l'architecture nous émeut, l'abside est disposée étrangement par rapport au reste du monument..»

Sous la terre, une magnifique calade …
« Il semblerait effectivement, rajoutera Bernard Rey architecte qui a opéré de nombreux relevés de côtes sur les remblais, que Croux ait abrité tout un complexe fort bien structuré, sans doute une cité tant l'architecture y est remarquable. Seul le monument religieux en serait le témoin, aujourd'hui »
C'est en effet fortuitement à l'occasion d'un dégagement de remblais en 2013 que le propriétaire de la parcelle a été curieux d'un sous-sol fourni.
Ce fut l'objet précieux trouvé à côté du gisant, d'abord présenté à Serge Bismuth, qui lui permit de comprendre de suite l'extrême importance du site de Croux. En effet, cet objet trouvé à côté du gisant est porteur des principes fondamentaux de la kabbale dont on sait qu'ils furent rapportés bien plus tard, dès le XIIIe siècle dans notre grande région, depuis Gerone et Narbonne. Mais nous devrions penser maintenant qu'ils avaient déjà été révélés à Croux dès le IIIe siècle…

Aujourd'hui le séquençage de l'ADN est une priorité.

Les membres de l'association s'accordent tous à dire que la priorité est certes que leurs recherches soient reconnues et divulguées au monde entier, mais que le séquençage de l'ADN du gisant permettrait à coup sûr de déterminer l'origine ethnique de cet homme à la position étrangement codifiée. C'est en quelque sorte un appel aux personnes désireuses de nous aider que le trésorier Gérard Céfaï lance alors à toute forme de soutien (mécène) pour que soit réunie la somme nécessaire pour cette analyse ADN (et qui, peut-être, permettront de couvrir les frais d'entretien et de protection du site, et d'y accueillir mieux encore les visiteurs).

Une nouvelle ère s'ouvre pour le petit hameau de Croux, qui pourrait bien devenir ces prochaines années le centre d'intérêts ethnologique, ethnographique et archéologique capital, mondialement reconnu…
Cathy MERCIER


Asso ciation Pierre et Gens de Croux 1 rue des Templiers CROUX 11190 ANTUGNAC (mail à mercier.catherine11@gmail.com qui transmettra), pour l'envoi de dons l'attestation pour la déduction fiscale sera expédiée par retour de courrier (association reconnue d'utilité publique).



Maybe you could find out who Serge Bismuth is because I only found a Doctor(G.P.) and Lecturer in Medicine and court of Appeals toulouse.

I'm not sure who is supposed to have the doctor of Aesthetics and Philosophy of Art University in Paris I Sorbonne and what is more, honorary dean of the University Picardie Jules Verne.
Maybe it's Cathy Mercier, who knows but it is interesting they are registered at Association Stone and People Croux 1 Templar Street CROUX ANTUGNAC 11190.

Wow an Honorary Dean of the University of Picardie Jules Verne, what an honour.


Quote:
No Ad: 121
Released: 11/08/2014

Association ASSOCIATION STONE AND PEOPLE CROUX.

Identification RNA: W112001548

Release No: 20140045
Department (Area): Aude (Languedoc-Roussillon)

Place of Publication: Statement to the sub-prefecture of Limoux.
Ad type: ASSOCIATION / CREATION


Statement to the sub-prefecture of Limoux ASSOCIATION STONE AND PEOPLE CROUX Subject: develop, safeguard and maintain the natural, archaeological and historic Croux hamlet in the town of Antugnac;.. backup and restore the ancient remains of the hamlet (chapel, ancient fortifications, church, well, ...); promote the village, participate in beautification and facilitate access to all the sites to the public; preserve, protect and facilitate the lives of the inhabitants of the hamlet of Croux; organize all events, exhibitions or events to finance the various above-mentioned objects and have a bank account registered office. The Fort of Holy Cross, 1 Rue Templar, Croux, 11190 Antugnac Declaration date. September 16, 2014 .

_________________
************


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016 2:35 am 
Offline
Emperor
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2009 10:28 pm
Posts: 5412
Location: NA
Quote:
Foundations made ​​of cyclopean blocks
The wall is the aerial part adjoining the building seems to be the remnant of a wall or the wall of a religious monument has undergone the ravages of time, however, its particularity remains intact. Its foundations, made of granite blocks articulated mortise and tenon joints are unique in their kind and can well ask us highlight Serge Bismuth


IMO this utter, utter, utter B.S. but it sounds good so I bet nobody will question it. To suggest this in anyway relevant to it being a Mikveh which was only known to be from the 1st century B.C.E. and yet somehow nobody else had the engineering skills is laughable. Especially when you consider that mortise and tenon joints are old as Stonehenge, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans with wide variations over thousands of years previously.

Sheila wrote:
The body in question could have been a Juif in the pay of the Roman army (before the Christian church solidified its power in the Roman hierarchy there was a substantial Jewish presence in the auxiliary, or limitani, units that the Romans used as frontier guards) .... or he could have just been a Juif who had settled and died in the area.


Anyway it seems that it's a kind of appeal to people wanting to help the treasurer Gerard Céfaï so he supposedly DNA sequence the Body. So it's by no means a fait accompli.
They should be able to afford that themselves esp. if Serge is an honorary Dean. DNA testing is really advanced and not as expensive now as before.
Extracting money from people for this does not make this credible. This only thing I would find credible is if they claimed kinship to Nigerian Royalty.

Well Sheila you wanted to discuss this and that's what I think.

_________________
************


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group