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 Post subject: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2015 6:02 pm 
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As many of you will know the "Oxford" connection to St Sulpice and the documents BS supposedly found revolves around Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley.

It was through a colleague of his that Lincoln, Baignent and Leigh became aware of a story regarding Lilley traveling to St Suplice in the early 1890's to decode a manuscript(s) that apparently stated that Jesus was still alive in 45 CE.

For those interest Canon Lilley's personal correspondences and diaries from 1868 through 1951 have been deposited at St Andrew's University archives.

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb227-ms30513-ms30890
This material is held at University of St Andrews
Reference Number(s) GB 227 ms30513-ms30890
Dates of Creation 1868-1951
Name of Creator Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley
Physical Description 564 items

An outline of some of the material can be found on the St Andrew's website.

https://pacific.st-andrews.ac.uk/DServe ... CMO/3#HERE

If anyone has access to view the archive, looking for proof that Lilley visited St Suplice or corresponded with John Hogan's sucessor would lend some credibility to the story.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2015 9:20 pm 
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Was the name of Lilley's colleague ever divulged?

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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 12:53 am 
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hotspur,

So Lilley passed this information onto Rev Dr. Douglas William Guest Bartlett.

Bartlett was a member of the Royal College of Surgeons, Royal College of Physicians and had several degrees from University of Wales and Oxford.

We know that Lilley was in communication with Alfred Loisy of the Institut Catholique de Paris. Loisy was an expert of ancient Israel, the Hebrew language and Assyria, and like Lilley a 'Modernist'.

The director of the Seminary prior to 1884 was the theologian John Hogan known for his Liberal tendencies when it came to education. Many of his students attended the seminars that Loisy held.
This was also noted about Hogan:

"... add that his perfect bilingualism gave him the opportunity to be in contact with significant figures of the “Oxford Movement,“ whether on the Catholic or Anglican side
http://www.sulpiciens.org/spip.php?article126

Post Hogan things began to change. Sorry it is late here and I don't have details at hand of Hogan's successor but I will dig them out and post in the morning.

Next is the former student of Lilley who was in Paris and this I am unsure of. However I think we could probably find this out. It would be a Trinity graduate (Catholic/Anglo-Catholic, likely theological graduate) who went to St Sulpice and was operating there in the 1890's. Possible Lilley's diary contains the correspondence.

I think this is worth pursuing because if there is evidence this took place, then it adds some credibility to the idea BS was in Paris and actually had some parchments.


Last edited by gladium on 28 Jun 2015 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 8:55 am 
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Gladium,

How is it you have all these details?

Did Bartlett leave any memoirs? There must be other people he's told besides Lincoln et al.

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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 9:34 am 
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gladium wrote:
As many of you will know the "Oxford" connection to St Sulpice and the documents BS supposedly found revolves around Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley.

It was through a colleague of his that Lincoln, Baignent and Leigh became aware of a story regarding Lilley traveling to St Suplice in the early 1890's to decode a manuscript(s) that apparently stated that Jesus was still alive in 45 CE.

For those interest Canon Lilley's personal correspondences and diaries from 1868 through 1951 have been deposited at St Andrew's University archives.

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb227-ms30513-ms30890
This material is held at University of St Andrews
Reference Number(s) GB 227 ms30513-ms30890
Dates of Creation 1868-1951
Name of Creator Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley
Physical Description 564 items

An outline of some of the material can be found on the St Andrew's website.

https://pacific.st-andrews.ac.uk/DServe ... CMO/3#HERE

If anyone has access to view the archive, looking for proof that Lilley visited St Suplice or corresponded with John Hogan's sucessor would lend some credibility to the story.


An interesting discussion for a change. Funnily enough I clicked on your St Andrews link and scrolled down the list and randomly clicked open one reference that just happened to concern a canon from my home town here in Newcastle......coincidence? Connection? Intuition? Hmmm :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 1:00 pm 
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hotspur wrote:
Gladium,

How is it you have all these details?

Did Bartlett leave any memoirs? There must be other people he's told besides Lincoln et al.


I don't know yet if Bartlett left memoirs. I believe several researchers followed up with his friends and family around the time the Jesus Papers was released and they knew nothing of the conversation.

I think the best place to start is with Lilley's papers. If there is any truth to him going to St Sulpice, you would hope he recorded it in his diary. Bartlett was in theory just recounting a conversation he had many years prior, so I see little point in researching him beyond what we know (that he had a conversation with Lincoln).

If nothing comes of this, at least it puts the rumor to bed and closes another false path.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 4:45 pm 
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There are a number of references and some background information regarding Lilley in Michael Baigent's book 'The Jesus Papers'. I cannot go through them now, but will look later.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 7:01 pm 
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gladium wrote:
Bartlett was in theory just recounting a conversation he had many years prior, so I see little point in researching him beyond what we know (that he had a conversation with Lincoln).




I agree Lilley's memoirs should be the focus however, this is probably going to be a case of chasing down every rabbit hole. I can't imagine that someone could keep this sort of information to themselves, particularly, not leaving something for posterity. He himself must have mentioned it to others.

Is this material covered in the "Jesus Papers"? Anywhere else?

(I'm heading for a two week break, so, unfortunately, I'll probably miss any ongoing discussion.)

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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 7:52 pm 
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hotspur,

Yes you would expect this. If one of his former students was the person who requested him to come to France, I think that would be another avenue to pursue.

It also looks like some of the students of the Modernist school were operating in Cambridge as well, I wonder what M. Burden's thoughts are on this.

I'm sure this thread will still be spinning when you return from your trip.

I wonder if these would be a good place to start?

https://pacific.st-andrews.ac.uk/DServe ... 3%2F490%27) (circa 1890)

and

https://pacific.st-andrews.ac.uk/DServe ... 3%2F525%27) (circa 1910)


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2015 9:29 pm 
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Because there is so much written about Bartlett and Lilley in 'The Jesus Papers', perhaps those interested should procure a copy of the aforementioned book?

Incidentally, it was this book that set me on the trail of Oracle of the Dead at Baia, which is also featured in the book and was my first introduction to this extraordinary place. Baigent's fanciful description of his trip down the treacherous tunnel South 120 was all I had to go on. Baigent's description in 'The Jesus Papers' filled me full of fear and trepidation. I intended to go down it and as far as I knew I would be the only man alive today to have done so. I started negotiations with Michael Baigent to get more pictures and information and he unfortunately died before I had a response. Of the only other recorded eye-witnesses, Alistair Reid was dead and Keith Jones was dead. As a man in my 60s with a serious lung complaint, once there deep inside a steamy volcano, I recklessly dived down it, without face mask or breathing apparatus and later wondered what all the fuss was all about. But that is authors for you, they have to sex it up a bit to get you all juiced up and excited. Granted, it was not exactly a pleasant stroll for me, but like I say, I have breathing issues. Did I say the walls are very rough and sharp? Do remember to duck. If you don't like going down long dusty uncharted black tunnels 18 inches high and 20 inches wide with no ventilation, then perhaps give it a miss.

Anyway, I digress.

Bartlett wrote to the HBHG team to say the RLC treasure was 'not one of gold and treasure, but a document containing incontrovertible proof that Jesus was alive in the year AD 45.'

In the 1930s Bartlett was living in Oxford in the same street as Canon Lilley and saw him every day. They became intimate friends and Lilley eventually explained the story of his connection with St Sulpice.

But really, if you are interested at all in the HBHG story, you need to read 'The Jesus Papers' if you haven't already done so.

Incidentally, Michael Baigent was no ordinary sensational author, he was intimately involved in academic research in the dead sea scrolls, on-site at Qumran.

The 'Jesus papers' referred to were two letters Baigent saw for himself, owned by a collector, written in aramaic, addressed to the Sanhedrin in response to a charge of a man calling himself 'The son of God'. The writer of the letters called himself bani meshiha - the messiah. In the letters he explains that he is an ordinary man not claiming to be divine.

Archaeologists Yigael Yadin and Nahmn Avigad confirmed the letters as genuine. Word reached Pope John XXIII about the letters, who asked for these documents to be destroyed. They still exist, owned by this private collector. No wonder the owner is secretive.

Baigent was a highly respected freemason. If your personal views about such an organisation are negative they are likely to be totally unfounded. Freemasons access and maintain connections among people in ways not accessible to the general public. I am not a mason, but all those I know that have graduated beyond the initial three degrees are men of the utmost probity and honour and they work in a variety of realms. It is probable that Baigent's connections in this case afforded him sight of the papers.

If you haven't read 'The Jesus Papers', you are missing part of the story. A jolly good read and I am sure Jane Baigent, Michael's widow, would appreciate a buy or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2015 11:07 am 
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The Jesus Papers does not shed much light on the dates and times of Lilley's trip to St Sulpice, it simply says the early 1890s.

Bartlett, in a face to face discussion with the HBHG authors, states that Lilley told him in the 1930s that he had been asked by a young former student of his to travel to the seminary of St Sulpice to advise on the translation of a strange document or documents - Bartlett could not remember how many. Lilley was Canon and Chancellor of Hereford Cathedral and an expert in medieval French. St Sulpice had a group of scholars that combed through all the documents that came in. Lilley suspected at the request of a Vatican Cardinal.

Lilley was certain the document(s) were authentic, extraordinary and upset many of our ideas about the church. He believed they had been in the possession of the Cathars in the 12th and 13th century, but believed them to be much older. He was also sure the document(s) had been kept in Switzerland after that date until the 14th century when they were taken to France.

Lilley told Bartlett that he didn't know what happened to the document(s) after St Sulpice, only that he thought they had changed hands for a large sum of money and ended up in Rome. Lilley thought the Church would destroy the documents. It does not seem likely that a copy of the doc(s) would be among Lilley's papers, but his diaries might well shed some light as to the nature of what he was working on. Lilley told Bartlett they contained evidence that Jesus was alive in AD 45. Bartlett thought it likely that they were what Sauniere had found, but I don't think we know for sure that Sauniere ever visited St Sulpice. He certainly became rich though.

Lilley in the end lost all his conviction of the truth of Christianity and said he couldn't trust any of the gospels. I think his diaries and papers would be very interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2015 11:40 am 
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gladium wrote:
If anyone has access to view the archive, looking for proof that Lilley visited St Suplice or corresponded with John Hogan's sucessor would lend some credibility to the story.

The St Andrews collection contains ten letters from Alfred Firmin Loisy, director of L'Institute Catholique. They should be interesting. Hogan's successor, 1892, ordered students to stop attending Loisy's Modernist lectures. Loisy was sacked from L'Institute Catholique and eventually excommunicated. It sounds like the lid was firmly being put back on and I doubt Lilley would have been much of a friend to Hogan's successor.

There is a complete PDF of 'The Jesus Papers' online at http://projectavalon.net/The_Jesus_Papers_Michael_Baigent.pdf - nothing to do with me, I just found it there while doing a search.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2015 4:46 pm 
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whoop,

I think you will find the following interesting:

Most of the biographical posts you will see about Alfred Lilley all repeat the same mistakes:

Quote:
Alfred Leslie Lilley (1860-1948) was born in the small town of Clare in Co. Armagh, Ireland. In 1860, he proceeded from school in Armagh to Trinity College Dublin where he graduated in 1889


For example:
http://socialarchive.iath.virginia.edu/ ... 6/w6b00x94

and

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb227-ms30513-ms30890

Anyone reading this will agree it is rather funny that a number of universities/institutions have repeated the same mistake.
Alfred Lilley obviously did not attend Trinity College Dublin in the same year he was born!
I believe it must have been 1880 when he went to Trinity (he would have been 20, I question if this is correct as 18 is the usual age to attend University, so 1878 may be more accurate) and then he spent 9 (or 11) years there before being assigned by the Church to Glendermott in Derry to the position of a curate.

So I would guess in the 9 (or 11) years he was at Trinity he was studying languages of which Old French must have been one. Alec Vider in his book " Variety of Catholic Modernists" pages 126 - 127 mentions that he had a brilliant career at Trinity College and spoke German, French, English and Italian.

This actually helps to narrow things down.

Any student who went to St Sulpice would have been a student of Lilley while he was at Trinity. This in turn would leave me to believe it must have been towards the end of his time there, as the early years he would have been an undergraduate himself.

So we are looking for a Trinity graduate from around 1881 or 1883 through 1889.

Assuming these dates are correct in 1891 Lilley was living in either Glendermott or Chelsea in London (he moved during this period, I suspect though he may still have been in Ireland) so the correspondence would likely have been from this period.

The above is based on the idea that he would have seen the manuscript in 1891. Of course he may have seen it slightly later. But we have a general time frame to work in (and to see if the story is even plausible)

I will see if I can narrow down his exact time at Trinity.

Maybe over time the story of Émile Hoffe has been mixed up with Alred Lilley (thanks to de Sède)?


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2015 7:48 pm 
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gladium wrote:
Any student who went to St Sulpice would have been a student of Lilley while he was at Trinity. This in turn would leave me to believe it must have been towards the end of his time there, as the early years he would have been an undergraduate himself.

So we are looking for a Trinity graduate from around 1881 or 1883 through 1889.

By this I suppose you mean the student who asked Lilley to go to St Sulpice. Yes I agree he or she would have been a Trinity graduate. Probably a he, catholicism being an inherently misogynist organisation not noted for its inclusion of women.

gladium wrote:
The above is based on the idea that he would have seen the manuscript in 1891. Of course he may have seen it slightly later. But we have a general time frame to work in (and to see if the story is even plausible)

Yes, I think the time frame of Lilley's visit to St Sulpice must be around this time and certainly no later than 1992 when the Vatican put an end to 'Modernism' and its heretical views with the new incumbent.

gladium wrote:
I will see if I can narrow down his exact time at Trinity.

Maybe over time the story of Émile Hoffe has been mixed up with Alred Lilley (thanks to de Sède)?

Narrowing down Lilley's time would seem a good approach, or that of his student. I am not au fait enough with the story of Emile Hoffet to understand what you are driving at regarding that angle.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2015 8:08 pm 
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gladium wrote:
Maybe over time the story of Émile Hoffe has been mixed up with Alred Lilley (thanks to de Sède)?

A DAGO BERT II ROI ET A SION EST CE TRES OR ET IL EST LA MORT.
(TO DAGO BERT II, KING, AND TO SION BELONGS THIS TREASURE AND HE IS THERE DEAD.)

HBHG (Holy Blood and the Holy Grail book):

"Although this particular message must have been discernible to Sauniere, it is doubtful that he could have deciphered the more intricate codes. Nevertheless, he realised he had stumbled upon something of consequence and, with the consent of the village mayor, brought his discovery to his superior, the bishop of Carcassonne. How much the bishop understood is unclear, but Sauniere was immediately dispatched to Paris at the bishop’s expense with instructions to present himself and the parchments to certain important ecclesiastic authorities. Chief among these were the Abbe Bieil, Director General of the Seminary of Saint Sulpice, and Bieil’s nephew, Emile Hoffet. At the time Hoffet was training for the priesthood."

Yet Michael Baigent says in 'The Jesus Papers' that the story that Sauniere ever visited Paris has resisted verification. So where did the authority for the HBHG story about the bishop of Carcassonne sending Sauniere to Paris come from?


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2015 8:30 pm 
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Whoop wrote:
gladium wrote:
Maybe over time the story of Émile Hoffe has been mixed up with Alred Lilley (thanks to de Sède)?

A DAGO BERT II ROI ET A SION EST CE TRES OR ET IL EST LA MORT.
(TO DAGO BERT II, KING, AND TO SION BELONGS THIS TREASURE AND HE IS THERE DEAD.)

HBHG (Holy Blood and the Holy Grail book):

"Although this particular message must have been discernible to Sauniere, it is doubtful that he could have deciphered the more intricate codes. Nevertheless, he realised he had stumbled upon something of consequence and, with the consent of the village mayor, brought his discovery to his superior, the bishop of Carcassonne. How much the bishop understood is unclear, but Sauniere was immediately dispatched to Paris at the bishop’s expense with instructions to present himself and the parchments to certain important ecclesiastic authorities. Chief among these were the Abbe Bieil, Director General of the Seminary of Saint Sulpice, and Bieil’s nephew, Emile Hoffet. At the time Hoffet was training for the priesthood."

Yet Michael Baigent says in 'The Jesus Papers' that the story that Sauniere ever visited Paris has resisted verification. So where did the authority for the HBHG story about the bishop of Carcassonne sending Sauniere to Paris come from?


I think it came from de Sede. I would have the find the reference. It is in HBHG as you say.

However Hoffet would have been too young in 1891 (only 19). I think it is more likely that Lilley went to St Sulpice and possibly at some point since Hoffet was Bieil's nephew and was interested in linguistics, they were mixed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 8:34 pm 
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As some of you know ( i see other links on this message board) the BNF has digitised many of its documents and made them available on the Gallica website.

There is some history on M. Bieil here as well:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6 ... ice.langEN

He passed away in 1898 at the age of 62. It is an interesting read.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 4:52 am 
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Whoop wrote:
Yes, I think the time frame of Lilley's visit to St Sulpice must be around this time and certainly no later than 1992 when the Vatican put an end to 'Modernism' and its heretical views with the new incumbent.

don' wanna be picky ... 1892?


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 7:42 pm 
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Whoop wrote:
Because there is so much written about Bartlett and Lilley in 'The Jesus Papers', perhaps those interested should procure a copy of the aforementioned book?

Incidentally, it was this book that set me on the trail of Oracle of the Dead at Baia, which is also featured in the book and was my first introduction to this extraordinary place. Baigent's fanciful description of his trip down the treacherous tunnel South 120 was all I had to go on. Baigent's description in 'The Jesus Papers' filled me full of fear and trepidation. I intended to go down it and as far as I knew I would be the only man alive today to have done so. I started negotiations with Michael Baigent to get more pictures and information and he unfortunately died before I had a response. Of the only other recorded eye-witnesses, Alistair Reid was dead and Keith Jones was dead. As a man in my 60s with a serious lung complaint, once there deep inside a steamy volcano, I recklessly dived down it, without face mask or breathing apparatus and later wondered what all the fuss was all about. But that is authors for you, they have to sex it up a bit to get you all juiced up and excited. Granted, it was not exactly a pleasant stroll for me, but like I say, I have breathing issues. Did I say the walls are very rough and sharp? Do remember to duck. If you don't like going down long dusty uncharted black tunnels 18 inches high and 20 inches wide with no ventilation, then perhaps give it a miss.

Anyway, I digress.

Bartlett wrote to the HBHG team to say the RLC treasure was 'not one of gold and treasure, but a document containing incontrovertible proof that Jesus was alive in the year AD 45.'

In the 1930s Bartlett was living in Oxford in the same street as Canon Lilley and saw him every day. They became intimate friends and Lilley eventually explained the story of his connection with St Sulpice.

But really, if you are interested at all in the HBHG story, you need to read 'The Jesus Papers' if you haven't already done so.

Incidentally, Michael Baigent was no ordinary sensational author, he was intimately involved in academic research in the dead sea scrolls, on-site at Qumran.

The 'Jesus papers' referred to were two letters Baigent saw for himself, owned by a collector, written in aramaic, addressed to the Sanhedrin in response to a charge of a man calling himself 'The son of God'. The writer of the letters called himself bani meshiha - the messiah. In the letters he explains that he is an ordinary man not claiming to be divine.

Archaeologists Yigael Yadin and Nahmn Avigad confirmed the letters as genuine. Word reached Pope John XXIII about the letters, who asked for these documents to be destroyed. They still exist, owned by this private collector. No wonder the owner is secretive.

Baigent was a highly respected freemason. If your personal views about such an organisation are negative they are likely to be totally unfounded. Freemasons access and maintain connections among people in ways not accessible to the general public. I am not a mason, but all those I know that have graduated beyond the initial three degrees are men of the utmost probity and honour and they work in a variety of realms. It is probable that Baigent's connections in this case afforded him sight of the papers.

If you haven't read 'The Jesus Papers', you are missing part of the story. A jolly good read and I am sure Jane Baigent, Michael's widow, would appreciate a buy or two.


That is so cool Whoop

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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 7:45 pm 
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Eginolf wrote:
Whoop wrote:
Yes, I think the time frame of Lilley's visit to St Sulpice must be around this time and certainly no later than 1992 when the Vatican put an end to 'Modernism' and its heretical views with the new incumbent.

don' wanna be picky ... 1892?

Just a temporary aberration, Eggy. I dropped through one of Patrice's portals and there I was, 100 years later.


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 8:02 pm 
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Quote:
The 'Jesus papers' referred to were two letters Baigent saw for himself, owned by a collector, written in aramaic, addressed to the Sanhedrin in response to a charge of a man calling himself 'The son of God'. The writer of the letters called himself bani meshiha - the messiah. In the letters he explains that he is an ordinary man not claiming to be divine.


It's that controversial title "Son of God or sons of God"

if you are in Quamran in the Dead Sea Scrolls of which the Vatican suppressed for decades

it's the Enoch .....banned version that talks about "sons of God"
Early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Commodianus believed that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:1-4 were fallen angels who engaged in unnatural union with human women, resulting in the begetting of the Nephilim

The Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees refer to the Watchers who are paralleled to the "sons of God" in Genesis 6.[29] The Epistle of Barnabas is considered by some to acknowledge the Enochian version



When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
—Genesis 6:1-4


Offspring of angels: A number of sources refer to the "sons of heaven" as angels. The earliest such references[7] seem to be in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Greek, and Aramaic Enochic literature, and in certain Ge'ez manuscripts of 1 Enoch (mss A–Q) and Jubilees[8] used by western scholars in modern editions of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha.

We've got that visitation from Gabriel to Mary

and in Enoch's version ....Uriel teaches man about his place among the stars and great knowledge

but we see Pope Zachary ban Uriel's veneration ....the same time as the Merovingian kings are deposed with the help of Pope Zachary

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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2015 7:39 am 
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Whoop wrote:
I dropped through one of Patrice's portals and there I was, 100 years later.

... but still looking good as it seems. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2015 1:03 am 
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http://www.rennes-le-chateau-rhedae.com/rlc/bartlett.html


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2015 10:40 am 
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Joined: 26 Oct 2006 9:11 pm
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Location: Livingston, Scotland.
It was the Abbe Bieil to whom whom Sauniere is supposed to have taken the parchments at St Sulpice
Bieil is then supposed to have put Sauniere in touch with Emile Hoffet for the decoding of the parchments.
Bieil died at Salies-du-Salat in 1898 in the diocese of Toulouse, where he had family. This is next door to the diocese of Carcassonne which includes Rennes-le-Château. Furthermore he was visited there in his last days by a "superior of the Compagnie de Saint Sulpice" called M Captier. Antoine Captier is the bell ringer who is supposed to have found a message in a glass phial during Sauniere's renovations of his church.

Are these interconnecting pieces of the jigsaw?


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 Post subject: Re: Alfred Leslie Lilley
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2015 12:50 pm 
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Grand Master

Joined: 22 Dec 2014 1:52 am
Posts: 239
Location: België
Crimson_Ghost wrote:


Purely speculation on Smith's part with no evidence. For example:

Quote:
Reverend Battlett's actions can be explained as a prank that backfired when it was all taken deadly seriously. Reverend Bartlett was simply engaging in a bit of fun.


and

Quote:
Reverend Bartlett's prank lasted for over 40 years – but much worse than that, he started a whole new myth out of a joke letter


Does he have any proof it was a prank? Anything in writing from Bartlett? He's not provided any evidence for this on his website.

Smith doesn't have an answer to any of the claims by Baigent. Now yes it could have been a prank, but instead of writing a sensible article and maybe going and viewing the papers in Scotland, he just cherry picks other peoples research and resorts to "it was a prank".
For example a lot of the material from this thread has been consumed on his website, links to the documents provided here etc.
He's like a dog chasing a ball :lol:.

If he had cared about it, he would have written an article years ago with links to Lilley etc. rather than wait until now ;).


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