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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2017 4:07 pm 
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Grand Master

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Sheila wrote:
A very fertile imagination.


We'll see about that 8)

Again, thanks for the link! This tool will come to excellent use.

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PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017 9:12 pm 
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Let's forget Fedie for a second and play with the thought that the main feature of this hilltop - prior to the construction of the the present day castle – was a fortified monastery, now long gone...

What would speak against it? Church records?

Would that explain why this location is not mentioned in the Song of the Crusade? (place was already held and controlled by local catholics)

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PostPosted: 30 May 2017 7:22 pm 
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Some notes on the northwest part of the village and two different walls, one which can be seen today and one which is gone.

Very thick wall at the small stretch between the restaurant garden och the old parking/field. This wall does not look like the other walls, it's much darker with different kind of stones. You can even see a pattern in it, might be two different walls/builds:

Image

That location of the dark wall marked with the white arrow. And when looking at old photos, one can see another thick walls that used to be here. It went in this strange pattern:

Image

At least that is how I interpret this photo:

Image

Shape like this:

Image

Then it became this this after the wall was removed:

Image

Another photo where you can see parts of it(?) to the very left:

Image

And would anyone know what this below is? Dirt, soil or rubble?
Look:
Image

One final picture from the that area above the restaurant garden, way back when it was NOT yet organized like it is today, with large stones and stuff. Does anyone see the little circle mark? What's that? Right south of the very bright parking area.

Image

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PostPosted: 30 May 2017 7:35 pm 
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Good found,

the wall runs directly to the Magdala tower.

Did you check the card cardastrale ?

regards Hans

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PostPosted: 30 May 2017 8:09 pm 
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Yes but the red marked wall does not really follow the cadastral at all, neither the old or new. Which is strange.

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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2017 4:18 pm 
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Whatever kind of structure was up there, it was something much longer than it was wide, stretching south, to the lookout point and starting perhaps at the Tour Magdala. Looks like a wall to me, or alternatively, a gallery/arcade, which is an interesting thought in itself.

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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2017 11:11 am 
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Im having some new thoughts which might contrast with my old theories.
I am open to both.

What if the MM church – and it's location – is not as old as we would like to believe...

## We have a time with the church and the present day chateau...

## And then we have a time before that, where the most interesting building was located at the western ridge, from the present day Belvedere of Sauniere stretching south to the parking place with the little (water?) tower.
This area should be excavated. One can dream...
How this place looked – and what it really was – could very well be the real mystery of the village. Seen from above, it would have been a long structure in a N-S-direction, much longer than it was wide.

After it's destruction, the new church and eventually the new chateau, was planned and built.

This would go a long way to explain it all, for me at least.

It would for example strengthen what we already suspect, that the ancient crypt is really located somewhere else.

(Then again, damn, the plan of the NW corner of RLC has so much in common with the one of Visigothic Reccopolis. So what should one think?)

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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2017 2:49 pm 
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At least we know that there MUST be somewhere a crypt in RLC. And there are different churches mentioned to have stood in this village. So yes, may well be that it is not in the MM church.


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2017 8:16 pm 
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I agree , BS

The church is build at the same time, as Fatin's chateau. The 17th century

Hans

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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2017 10:11 pm 
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fmh999 wrote:
At least we know that there MUST be somewhere a crypt in RLC. And there are different churches mentioned to have stood in this village. So yes, may well be that it is not in the MM church.


hans peper wrote:
I agree , BS

The church is build at the same time, as Fatin's chateau. The 17th century

Hans


So what would you all say?

If we had a N-S running fortified structure... longer than it's wide.

We know - more or less - the overall area of interest.

But where would we put the chapel/place of worship?
In the north, south or the middle?
Close to the entrance or far from it?
I am sure we could find the most likely locations if we gave it some thought, and take it from there.

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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2017 9:12 pm 
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If there was an very old castle, it could be, that there was not a complete church or chapel on the hilltop.

In those days, they had a socalled "chapel" in a room of the castle. So the crypt was in this case one of the cellar rooms of the old castle.

So after my meaning, the crypt must be in that area, which you pointed out BS.

I think, that it is under the old priesthouse, west of the MM. Directly under Saunieres living room, but sadly it is plundered by Sauniere.

regards Hans

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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017 9:09 am 
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hans peper wrote:
If there was an very old castle, it could be, that there was not a complete church or chapel on the hilltop.

In those days, they had a socalled "chapel" in a room of the castle. So the crypt was in this case one of the cellar rooms of the old castle.

So after my meaning, the crypt must be in that area, which you pointed out BS.

I think, that it is under the old priesthouse, west of the MM. Directly under Saunieres living room, but sadly it is plundered by Sauniere.

regards Hans


They already dug close to that room. During Henri Buthions time?

No, I believe it's further up west, under the elevated "structure", we will find a crypt.

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2017 5:52 am 
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regards Hans

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 8:19 am 
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Hi Barbarian,

Here is an example how the old Cathar castles have been extended in the 13/14th century. The new owners need space for a lot of soldiers.

The chateau Puivert wellknown by the movie "The ninth gate" (by Roman Polanski featering Jonny Depp). Not far from RlC .
.
Image
.
Here a view from the air, left the old part with the giant donjon and right from the donjon is the extended part. No buildings inside, because the troops have been sleeping in tents.
.
Image
.
And here you see the intention of the architects : The new doorhouse hides the view at the old donjon, and it looks bigger than the donjon.
.
Image
.
.
The size of the old castle ground is about 50 x 30 m which is less than 1500 m2 . Place enough in the Belvedere. And notice, the donjon is on the side of the entrance and not on the tip of the plateau ! He is on that place, where you expect the RLC donjon !

All the best Hans

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 11:28 am 
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And if we have a look at RlC :

The eastern part of the Chateau Hautpoul is from the 13th century the rest of the chateau is from the 16th century.

So the eastern part of the chateau must be the end of the extension from the 13th century.

.
Image
.
You can see, that the old chateau is hidden by the extension, if you have access from the Grand Rue.
And the same as in Puivert : the extension is about 3-4 times so big as the old castle.
.
regards Hans

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 11:33 am 
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The second extension from the 16th century is the last one and it must be like you developed.

But nobody knows why : The whole fortress was rubbed out in the 17th century, exept of the chateau and the church.

regards Hans

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 5:27 pm 
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hans peper wrote:
And if we have a look at RlC :

The eastern part of the Chateau Hautpoul is from the 13th century the rest of the chateau is from the 16th century.

So the eastern part of the chateau must be the end of the extension from the 13th century.

.
Image
.
You can see, that the old chateau is hidden by the extension, if you have access from the Grand Rue.
And the same as in Puivert : the extension is about 3-4 times so big as the old castle.
.
regards Hans



It's good, I can see it, if that wall of the present day château was once part of a gatehouse, I think I how just were the "middle" gatehouse was.

But we need to find a way to incorporate it with the height differences of the western most parts of the village, those parts that run north-south from Saunieres towers to the old parking/watchpoint. This area is larger than the Saunters tower square and extends beyond it to the south.
I think these elevation differences are in facts the best evidence of fortifications one can find.

And somewhere, there was once a cellar. Maybe the cellar today is above ground and we cannot understand that is once was in fact a cellar, maybe it's still there somewhere below groundlevel.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 5:58 pm 
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What do you think, can the area from south east of the Belvedere until the water tower be extended in the 15th century, at the same time, where the chateau Hautpoul was uprised ?
Or do you think, that it belongs to the first old castle ? If yes, it is too big !

best regards Hans

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 6:01 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
....I think these elevation differences are in facts the best evidence of fortifications one can find...


It is on my to do list, to go there and have a look, what ground is in what elevation.

PS remember the thick wall direct south of the Belvedere, running twards the west. You discovered it.
This must be the southern end of the old castle.


Hans

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017 9:05 pm 
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hans peper wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
....I think these elevation differences are in facts the best evidence of fortifications one can find...


It is on my to do list, to go there and have a look, what ground is in what elevation.

PS remember the thick wall direct south of the Belvedere, running twards the west. You discovered it.
This must be the southern end of the old castle.


Hans


There were in fact several thick walls (one is still there) in that very corner. These walls are/were too thick to be normal boundary walls between plots.

Best would be to send up a drone with a camera and run the readings in a program.
Then we would see the past.
My longterm goal is something like that.

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PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017 6:53 am 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
....Best would be to send up a drone with a camera and run the readings in a program.
Then we would see the past.
My longterm goal is something like that....


It will not be easy to find the truth, because someone did a great job, to hide the truth how RlC was build in the past.

But no one makes a 100 % job, and we will find out.....



We have an old castle with a donjon from the XI th century

We have a great extension in the 13th century (the old castle is 200 years old now and good in use)

We have a possible 2nd extension in the 16 th century (the Hautouls lived 100 years in the old mainbuilding and get a new chateau now). A belt of fortification was build on the southside of the hilltop.

We have 100 years later, in the 17th century nothing back from the whole fortress, than the chateau Hautpoul and the MM-church. And this is amazing and opens the question : Why ?


If someone wanted to hide the building situation of the past, what could be the reason ? Maybe he has an old cellar in use to store something, which no one should know. This must have been a mighty man, rubbing out a whole fortress, to get a cellar as a hidingplace, and the things, which are hidden must be very, very important. Just so important as the man, who hide them.

What if he was so mighty, that he will make us believe, that he used a cellar in RlC - but the cellar is in a village nearby ?

regards Hans

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PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017 7:31 pm 
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Let's just stay in RLC for a minute.
The ruin next to the gift shop, just south of church...
(house demolished not very long ago)

Why does the two sides of the ruin that still partly is in place have so thick walls? The thickness is not just a strengthened wall, it's size is extremely thick, like in a fortress wall.

You can clearly see that the two walls that were removed were much thinner. So, did the house that was demolished use much older walls for two of the sides when built?

Image

Image

Center:
Image

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PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017 8:12 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
Let's just stay in RLC for a minute.
The ruin next to the gift shop, just south of church...
(house demolished not very long ago)

Why does the two sides of the ruin that still partly is in place have so thick walls? The thickness is not just a strengthened wall, it's size is extremely thick, like in a fortress wall.

You can clearly see that the two walls that were removed were much thinner. So, did the house that was demolished use much older walls for two of the sides when built?

Image

Image

Center:
Image

The house belonged to the Denarnauds.


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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2017 6:14 am 
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The thick walls fit to the "1st extension" of the fortress.

regards Hans

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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2017 6:40 am 
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Sheila wrote:
En 1990, M. Henri Buthion, propriétaire du domaine , fit démolir l'ancienne maison.

http://rennes-le-chateau-en-quete-de-ve ... ge-21.html


photos at the bottom.


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