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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2017 9:30 pm 
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RenaissanceMan wrote:
For the record (BS) you shouldn't be on any bandwagon, you should approach this with the integrity of an open attitude. (Lecture over)


It's easier to spot Roman influence. Besides, with Rome, there's enough to read and look at for a lifetime and more.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2017 11:23 pm 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
Where is any evidence the Celtic peoples had once lived in RlB? It wouldn`t be a shock of course, but has anything Celtic ever been found and verified? Evidently thousands of Roman coins have been found, pottery,ruins,votive offerings.etc.. Same goes for the Visigoths, coins,jewerly,tools,weapons,where`s the evidence? Rhedae, 30,000 people and not a shred of evidence left behind?

You guys are putting together an idea of a Celtic town layout, but what makes you think the Celts where there in the first place? Are you gonna say the 57 degree lines are enough evidence?

I don`t mean to be rude, I`m just trying to understand why you think this?


They didn't live there they worshipped there. It's was considered sacred space which is what Boudet harks on about. And 30, 000 represents something else all together. Rhedae wasn't there it was about moving the Mythology of Brittany to RLC.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2017 11:36 pm 
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rain wrote:
Crimson_Ghost wrote:
Where is any evidence the Celtic peoples had once lived in RlB? It wouldn`t be a shock of course, but has anything Celtic ever been found and verified? Evidently thousands of Roman coins have been found, pottery,ruins,votive offerings.etc.. Same goes for the Visigoths, coins,jewerly,tools,weapons,where`s the evidence? Rhedae, 30,000 people and not a shred of evidence left behind?

You guys are putting together an idea of a Celtic town layout, but what makes you think the Celts where there in the first place? Are you gonna say the 57 degree lines are enough evidence?

I don`t mean to be rude, I`m just trying to understand why you think this?


They didn't live there they worshipped there.


How can you be so sure they worshiped there?

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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 5:11 am 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
rain wrote:
Crimson_Ghost wrote:
Where is any evidence the Celtic peoples had once lived in RlB? It wouldn`t be a shock of course, but has anything Celtic ever been found and verified? Evidently thousands of Roman coins have been found, pottery,ruins,votive offerings.etc.. Same goes for the Visigoths, coins,jewerly,tools,weapons,where`s the evidence? Rhedae, 30,000 people and not a shred of evidence left behind?

You guys are putting together an idea of a Celtic town layout, but what makes you think the Celts where there in the first place? Are you gonna say the 57 degree lines are enough evidence?

I don`t mean to be rude, I`m just trying to understand why you think this?


They didn't live there they worshipped there.


How can you be so sure they worshiped there?


That's an essay length question. There is not one reason there are mutiple lines of history. Starting off with Maths and Language, the history of the Volcae tectosages. It's not just about Boudet it's also related to French history. It's accepted that the Volcae Tectosages ruled the region - the question you are seriously asking would then be why RLB/RLC - what is it in there belief system would have brought them to the specific area and how does it align with their beliefs.

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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 3:35 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
For me - it is the wider area of the Aude.

There is alot of evidence of the Celts being here - in archaeological museums and in the learned societies of the time.
There is enough evidence.

There was a chariot burial found in the vicinity.

I myself saw at the Campagne Sur Aude little museum celtic coins that have been found. I believe i took photos.

CG - take alook at this website and all the ages and its evidence.
Not precisely in RLB & RLC but in the general vicinity

http://fenouilledes.free.fr/index.php/l ... ledes.html

and this one for example:

http://fenouilledes.fr/du-neolithique-a ... ouilledes/


Thanks Sandy, I think we can can all agree they had a presence in the area , but I`m more interested in RlC/RLB. It wouldn`t surprise me if they were there, but why the lack of evidence? If we believe RlB may have been a religious center,shouldn`t we have a reason to believe this?

Do you recall where the chariot burial was found, I remember talking about this before but couldn`t find our discussions.


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 3:51 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
It should have began as a pre-Celtic/Celtic hillfort as in "Run to the hills, run for your life..."


And at RLC, the entire plateau would have housed spread out settlements, in addition to the would be town/city at the top.

So was RLC once much larger? I'm more torn now than I was a couple of years ago. Back then I would have ruled it out.


Hey BS, I couldn`t agree more. The fairly flat lands would have made great area`s for villages, the Aude was handy. The RlC plateau, and Casteillas(as FMH mentioned) would have made nice hillforts. RlB for a religious center. So where is the evidence for something like this? Would the Roman migration have totally wiped out all the existing Celtic influence?


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 3:53 pm 
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fmh999 wrote:
I still have this "prison" area in mind by thinking on RLB. Don't ask me why. Just a feeling. Like a place of exile.


How about a mining village at first? Then becoming the spa town? Just a thought.


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 4:02 pm 
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rain wrote:

That's an essay length question.


How about shortening it up, and explain how you know it was a place of worship. I don`t mean how rivers and springs were sacred places, we know this. I mean RlB directly. Convince me, because I want to agree but just have a hard time.


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 4:07 pm 
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rain wrote:
And 30, 000 represents something else all together. Rhedae wasn't there it was about moving the Mythology of Brittany to RLC.


The 30,000 means what? Why bring the mythology of Brittany to RlC, I understand the Rennes namesake in both places. Boudet did talk about the Redones, who were from the Brittany region. But why mix it up?


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 4:14 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
"Run to the hills, run for your life..."


1982, and you said nothing good after 1980... :lol: they also wrote a song entitled "Montsegur".


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 7:03 pm 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
"Run to the hills, run for your life..."


1982, and you said nothing good after 1980... :lol: they also wrote a song entitled "Montsegur".


I know... well let's have it at 1990 then.

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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 7:06 pm 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
Would the Roman migration have totally wiped out all the existing Celtic influence?


Again, it was – for most parts – a social and cultural merger, one that took place over time. Some elements even survived. The came the Goths, and the Franks.

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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2017 9:44 pm 
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How about a mining village at first? Then becoming the spa town? Just a thought.

CG,

Are you remotely reading my latest article that i havent even put on line yet? :mrgreen:
This is exactly what i am talking about.


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 12:56 am 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:

For the record, I'm all on the Roman bandwagon, it that wasn't obvious.


A Roman walks into a bar, holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please."

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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 6:36 am 
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Caelum wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:

For the record, I'm all on the Roman bandwagon, it that wasn't obvious.


A Roman walks into a bar, holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please."


Clever, I see what you did there. 8)


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 7:13 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
How about a mining village at first? Then becoming the spa town? Just a thought.

CG,

Are you remotely reading my latest article that i havent even put on line yet? :mrgreen:
This is exactly what i am talking about.


Hi Sandy, unfortunately no I haven`t mastered that yet. It`s an idea I had for awhile. I never looked into any aspect of it, it just kinda made some sense. My thoughts are a small mining village, a temple or two, some living quarters for the workers and families. Perhaps a villa for the mining bosses. After the mines went dry, the baths would have been the main attraction for people travelling through the area. And then...I don`t know what happened.


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 11:11 am 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
rain wrote:

That's an essay length question.


How about shortening it up, and explain how you know it was a place of worship. I don`t mean how rivers and springs were sacred places, we know this. I mean RlB directly. Convince me, because I want to agree but just have a hard time.


.

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Last edited by rain on 02 Mar 2017 11:39 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 11:24 am 
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Crimson_Ghost wrote:
rain wrote:
And 30, 000 represents something else all together. Rhedae wasn't there it was about moving the Mythology of Brittany to RLC.


The 30,000 means what? Why bring the mythology of Brittany to RlC, I understand the Rennes namesake in both places. Boudet did talk about the Redones, who were from the Brittany region. But why mix it up?


:lol: Wow, again another essay length question. I can't really do that - summerise something that so complex in a way that will be understood. It's not just about one thing it's like a web of lies and truth, of history.

So I'll be short as you ask but I'm pretty sure it won't help.
I'm sure you've heard/read of the rumours that Plantard was trying to create or transfer a religion. As you say it wasn't only Plantard, it seemed to be a bit of joke about Rhedae. Consider this Rhedae is more a concept then an actual place even though the genesis of the sect came from Brittany. Like the myth that Atlanteans beached on the coast etc... like Tolkein took that and used it to suggest that Númenor?/into the West was Atlantis.

I admit Boudet and Plantard are separate at least in their attitudes to history.

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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 6:09 pm 
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There's a bit out there concerning old references of "Celtic" priests and priestesses bringing alms and offerings to Mediterranean temples and beyond including one on the shore of the Black Sea.
Quote:
In the 18th century, historians discovered exciting proof of Phoenician-Celtic ties. An ancient Roman dramatist, Titus Maccius Plautus (died 184 B.C.) wrote a play, the Penulus, in which he placed then-current Phoenician into the speech of one of his characters. In the 18th century, linguists noticed the great similarity between that Phoenician and the early Irish Celtic language. In the adjacent box is a sample given by historian Thomas Moore's, History of Ireland, showing the connection between these languages. Leading 18th and 19th century scholars, such as Gen. Charles Vallancey, Lord Rosse, and Sir William Betham, also wrote on this subject. Vallancey, for instance, speaks of, "The great affinity found in many words, nay whole lines and sentences of this speech, between the Punic [Phoenician] and the Irish." George Rawlinson, Phoenicia, p. 327


Quote:
In 1772, General Charles Vallancey, a leading Irish scholar of the day, published his famous work, "Essay On The Antiquity Of The Irish Language, Being A Collation Of The Irish With The Phoenician Punic Language." In his opening remarks he states, "On a collation of the Irish with the Celtic, Punic, and Phoenician languages, the strongest affinity, (nay a perfect Identity in very many Words) will appear; it may therefore be deemed a Punic-Celtic compound. "Vallancey continues, "from the Canaanite proceeded the Phoenician, from the Phoenician, Carthaginian, or Punic was derived the Aeolian, Dorian and Etruscan, and from these was formed the Latin... Of the Roman Saxon capital letters, the Irish use but three, all the others bear a very great resemblance to the primitive Canaanite and Phoenician." (p. 2-3) Modern language scholars have confirmed that there is a definite connection between the Celtic and Canaanite Phoenician."

http://phoenicia.org/Phoenician_Celtic_connections.html

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When Alexander the Great invaded the Danubian lands in 335 BC, he found Celtic tribes that lived in Dacia. Other migrating Celts settled west of the Dacian borders in what is today Austria, Czech Republic, France, Slovakia and nearby territories.

http://www.iongrumeza.com/node/28


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017 10:42 pm 
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It`s an idea I had for awhile. I never looked into any aspect of it, it just kinda made some sense.

The Gallic gold was known to the ancient world and "Gallia aurifera" is often quoted by ancient Greek and Latin authors, which aroused Roman lust. Rome was very poor in gold, and so the conquests of the Roman republic were intended to exhaust all the gold mines in active use in the conquered regions.

The gold of the Gauls had boggled the imagination since antiquity. The most recent researches prove that the Gauls were exceptional prospectors and miners for gold. For example, heavy carts loaded with gold preceded Vercingetorix in his chains at the triumph of Caesar in Rome, 46 BC. The Romans had defeated this 'hairy' Gaul ... and gained the gold of Gaul, a territory - it was thought - that was gorged with gold. The gold was that which the Gauls had mined for centuries in the rivers, on the flanks of the mountains, and in the bowels of the earth. And the gold they found made sumptuous jewels, for them and for their gods.

Legends of the gold of the Celts/Gauls have haunted them since those ancient times. The Greek and Roman authors mention with disbelief mixed with envy the gold wealth of Gaul, and the treasures accumulated in their sanctuaries. And in fact Caesar is even accused of having destroyed Gallic cities for the sole purpose of seizing this gold. There were stories of the chief Luerius throwing from his chariot pieces of gold and silver to his compatriots,and of the Gauls going to battle dressed in only their bracelets and their famous torque (necklaces) in gold ...


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017 5:36 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
It`s an idea I had for awhile. I never looked into any aspect of it, it just kinda made some sense.

The Gallic gold was known to the ancient world and "Gallia aurifera" is often quoted by ancient Greek and Latin authors, which aroused Roman lust. Rome was very poor in gold, and so the conquests of the Roman republic were intended to exhaust all the gold mines in active use in the conquered regions.

The gold of the Gauls had boggled the imagination since antiquity. The most recent researches prove that the Gauls were exceptional prospectors and miners for gold. For example, heavy carts loaded with gold preceded Vercingetorix in his chains at the triumph of Caesar in Rome, 46 BC. The Romans had defeated this 'hairy' Gaul ... and gained the gold of Gaul, a territory - it was thought - that was gorged with gold. The gold was that which the Gauls had mined for centuries in the rivers, on the flanks of the mountains, and in the bowels of the earth. And the gold they found made sumptuous jewels, for them and for their gods.

Legends of the gold of the Celts/Gauls have haunted them since those ancient times. The Greek and Roman authors mention with disbelief mixed with envy the gold wealth of Gaul, and the treasures accumulated in their sanctuaries. And in fact Caesar is even accused of having destroyed Gallic cities for the sole purpose of seizing this gold. There were stories of the chief Luerius throwing from his chariot pieces of gold and silver to his compatriots,and of the Gauls going to battle dressed in only their bracelets and their famous torque (necklaces) in gold ...




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


https://e-numizmatyka.pl/portal/strona- ... ifera.html
Quote:
Gallia aurifère

Gold France comes out of the water currents. It is possible to distinguish three gold-bearing sectors important for their breadth and richness of deposits. These are the Pyrenees, the south-eastern edge of the Massif Central and Armorican Massif (Armoryka is the Celtic name of Brittany). For these large districts, add the Limousin area, several rivers from the area of extinct volcanoes: Puy-de-Dôme, Cantal, and the plain of the Rhine et al. In France, panning river sand already practiced in antiquity and the Middle Ages. It continued until the eighteenth century. In contrast, since 1975, gold mining was revived in the form of active leisure.

A little history

antique: intensive mining

It seems that the golden wealth of Gaul was one of the reasons for the invasion of the Romans some 2,000 years ago.
Scriptures many ancient writers (Strabo, Pliny, Possidonios ...) testify to prosperity "gallia aurifère." However, traces of ancient excavations in Galicia, so often mentioned, are difficult to accurately locate. Recent archaeological research has shown that 400 years before our era Gauls Limousin digging a basement in search of precious metals. In the Pyrenees, near Cambo Les Aldudes and the region, there are numerous places that seem to be traces of ancient life.

Ages: big secret

We have little information about the use of gold in this era. Rinsing river sand apparently existed and was developed mainly along the Rhine, the Alps, the Pyrenees and Limousin. It seems that after the fall of the Roman Empire, operation totally withered. The causes remain a mystery.

from the fifteenth to the eighteenth century

At this period dates back to the first acts, decrees and documents written on mining and legalizing this activity. In these centuries of mining activity reached its peak along the Rhine, the Rhone and its tributaries, in the Cévennes and the Pyrenees. According to historians, the collection of grains of gold remained an additional source of income, allowing owczarzom, farmers and fishermen enrich your purse.

XIX century: the disappearance seekers

Until 1810, that is to implement the law for mines and quarries, gold prospectors worked under the direction of royal officials. The manager of the royal treasury was the holder of certain privileges, which allowed him to choose the deposit and even use them without the permission of the owner of the place.
Law 1810 abolished the officials and authorization to operate depended now on owners of waterfront gold-bearing waters. For this reason, many illegal gold prospectors ruthlessly expelled.
Despite the great interest in the search for new incoming gold, this activity remained in the sphere of individual needs. Hence the disappearance seekers. It is believed that the individual production of prospectors from the river Gardon or Cčze was about two to three grams dziennie.Tego type seekers to exist for several years, but they disappeared in the early twentieth century.

XX century: the revival of mining industry and development of the exploration of gold as a form of leisure

The twentieth century is in France, the discovery and exploitation of multiple gold-bearing deposits (mines La Lucette, La Bellière, Le Châtelet, salsigne, Chen, ...). This activity resulted in the resumption of the golden couple of attempts to use on an industrial scale: in le Gard, l'Aričge, la Dodogne and le Morbihan. Despite the wealth of gold, French alluvial deposits were limited small volume and spread. Did not result in yield in industrial and other like sample extraction, showed losses.

70.XX years in bloom

In the 70s, we accompany flourishing gold mining in France. Jean-Claude Lefaucheur, a former journalist, he tried to live with the golden harvest extracted from a long river Salat (l'Ariege), then with le Gard. His experiment was successful. Lefaucheur wrote a book recounting his story - "Miner France" - which caused a small gold rush.
At the same time, some people, mainly mineral collectors, turned towards the mineral exploration migrant in the course of gold. Few worked individually in the region, without publicity, for my own pleasure. Very quickly, this original activity was considered to be an interesting way to spend a Sunday afternoon and reached wide coverage. When some treated for gold as a great form of leisure time, others have tried to make it a profession.
In 1986, in Saint-Girons (river l'Aričge) organized the first championship of France in search of gold. Since this year began to form numerous associations, which gave rise to the La Fédération Française d'Orpaillage (Ffor) founded in 1988.
In the same year, with the help of Ffor Goldplanning World Associacion hosted the world championships in searching for gold, which took place in Foix (l'Aričge). From that moment in France it was established 9 regional companies, and in 2000 Ffor numbered about 250 prospectors and nearly 350 people practicing this form of activity.
Raiders amateurs come from different professional and social represent all ages with a strong group of 30- and 50-year-olds. All have only one goal: to take pleasure in search of gold.

today

Several searchers trying to live the extraction of gold. In accordance with the new owners of the gravel pit seekers they have invested in the installation of washing sand -to allow to capture part of the gold contained in the river. This rather costly method allows time to realize some good collections (several grams per week) in the richest rivers (in the Pyrenees, the Rhone, the Rhine, ...).

The legislative aspect

Amateur searching for gold is considered a form of exploration pit. Is subordinated to the code of the mining. From seeker is required to:

- A declaration stating the prefecture periods and running water studied
- A written consent to search the owner of the river (as for private water)
- Administrative Consent for disposal of production research (Article 8 of the Mining Code). Theoretically seeker should have a permission of the prefect on the sale of their booty.

The future of this exciting activity is uncertain due to the many laws imposed. However, these restrictions are necessary to protect the environment. Thus, there is an order to respect this delicate environment, comply with the rules in force in the region, particularly in the region of l'Aričge and certain protected zones in non-compliance with the Code threatened with arrest. In the case of the region l'Aričge is necessary consent of the prefecture of the precise space exploration. The use of machines motoryzowanych (pumps, dredging) is strongly prohibited.

Competition with the search of gold

Since it takes about 20 years for the world competition in search of gold in the form of national and international championships. As for the contest of skill that rewards seeker most agile in the art of using a bowl or other tools. The organization of the championship and the rules are defined by the World Association Goldpaning - an instance of the world, whose headquarters is located in Tankavaara, Finland. It was the Finns organized the first competition of this kind, which have since become very popular and spread throughout the world. They held everywhere looking for the gold, amateur or professional.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017 7:00 am 
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So Crimson Ghost - if you look at the article above and Sandy's proposition about the Gallic Gold mines and mining you can also deduce that Brittany has the same type of Geology and attributes as RLC/RLB area. I think there is more to be had about these similarities including Mary and the Grotto.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017 2:02 pm 
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Quote:
So Crimson Ghost - if you look at the article above and Sandy's proposition about the Gallic Gold mines and mining you can also deduce that Brittany has the same type of Geology and attributes as RLC/RLB area.

Ok, I will assume you mean the gold bearing bits.
Quote:
I think there is more to be had about these similarities including Mary and the Grotto.

Great, I have no idea what your talking about.

Quote:
And 30, 000 represents something else all together.
So can you elaborate this in a non cryptic, non deCherisey, sort of way.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017 6:10 pm 
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It would be a fantastic read if someone with enough knowledge would make a Rhedae summary.

Now thats an article I would read.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017 8:20 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Getting back to the thread and the city of Rhedae.

I have a problem here, i'm not sure there was a city.




History tells us of the Pagus Redensis, mentioned for the first time at the end of the VIII century in the cartulaire de Capcir...Pagus Redensis- the vast territory of Rhedesium, the Pays de Razès the land that encompassed the cantons of Limoux, Quillan, Couiza, Alaigne, and a part of the territory of Saint-Hilaire and Fanjeaux.

...fine, no problem with that.


And by the end of the IX century this land, this Pagus Redensishas grown to become the Comitatus Redensis, the comté de Rhedez which encompasses not only the Razès, but le Fenouillèdes, le Pays de Sault, le Capcir, le Donnezan, Le Peyreperthuses, le Termenés and le Conflent.

...okay, no problem there.



Then we come to the city of Rhedae that is mentioned by Louis Fédié back in 1880 that has inspired so many authors and researchers into "l'affaire de Rennes".
We have been told that Rennes-le-Château appears for the first time under the Latin name of ‘Redas’ or 'Rhedae' in Parænesis ad judices, written by the bishop Théodulf of Orleans to the emperor Charlemagne, who sent him on a visit to the southern cities in 798.
Théodulf, a very erudite man who went on to be Archbishop of Lyons, was one of two "juges prélats", the Missi Dominicis sent by Charlemagne to Septimanie to check out what was happening on the streets.
This first mention of the antique Rhedae which appears in Théodulf's report, is cited as important because the cities of Carcassonne, Rhedae and Narbonne are mentioned in the same breath, showing Rhedae to be on an equal footing with the two great walled cities of Carcassona and Narbo.



"Inde revidentes te, Carcassonna, Rhedasque

Moenibus inferimus nos, cito, Narbo tuis".


or.....

"Inde revidentes te, Carcassonna, Rhedasque

Inferimus mûris nos quoque, Narbo, tuis"




Image

Mémoires de la Société des arts et des sciences de Carcassonne 1878
http://books.google.fr/books?id=rl3NAAA ... CDoQ6AEwAQ



Reams of people have written books saying that here, with the word Rhedasque , we see proof of a city, a totally unknown city just coming to light in the Razès.

This is THE famous quote that everyone has got hot under the collar about... and this is where i have a problem.

Image
Rennes et ses derniers seigneurs, 1730-1820: René Descadeillas - 1964
http://books.google.fr/books?id=zeB7rL0 ... CD4Q6AEwAg

Quote:
"On peut noter l'intérêt que Charlemagne apporte au Razés, région de Rhedae, en envoyant de ses plus fidèles conseiller. Theodulphe citera le fameux village de Rennes-le-Château sous son nom de Rhedae dans un poème en latin intitulé "Paraenesis ad judices" : "inde revidentes te, carcasona, rhedasque, menibus inferimus nos, cito narbo tuis…."


Quote:
Théodulf fit à l'Empereur la relation de son voyage dans un poème en latin intitulé "Paraenesis ad judices", dont sont extraits les deux vers suivants, aujourd'hui fort connus des gens qui s'intéressent à l'histoire de Rennes le Château:

"Inde revidentes te, Carcassona, Rhedasque
Moenibus, inferimus nos, cito, Narbo tuis."

On voit que le nom d'une ville totalement inconnue jusqu'alors, et qu'il semble mettre sur le même pied que Narbonne et Carcassonne, y apparaît effectivement. S'appuyant sur ce texte et sur les écrits d'un historien carcassonnais de la Renaissance nommé Guillaume Besse, et aussi sur le fait qu'elle fut le chef-lieu de la plus grande entité territoriale de Gothie, le comté de Razés, Fédié se mit à la recherche de cette Troie locale, dont l'emplacement exact était déjà fort discuté Il publia, en 1878, un ouvrage intitulé "Le comté de Razés", constitué de notices historiques dont la principale était, bien sûr, consacrée à Rhedae. Cette monographie fut approuvée par la Société des Arts et des Sciences de Carcassonne - dont Fédié était sans nul doute l'un des membres les plus éminents,- et eut l'honneur d'être présentée au Congrès des Sociétés Savantes tenu en la Sorbonne, le 28 Avril 1877. Elle fut même admise en lecture publique, lors d'une assemblée générale.




Well.... I disagree with the translation which says something like, and i quote ... "blah blah blah, Carcassona, Rhedasque blah blah blah Narbo blah"



"Inde revidentes te, Carcassonna, Rhedasque

Moenibus inferimus nos, cito, Narbo tuis".




hmm....well, i'm no latin scholar but i only see mention of two cities here, not three. If the legendary city of Rhedae hinges on these two lines then maybe...maybe there is no city, there was no city because it never existed.

Les chateaux et les bains de Regnes/Rennes in the Pagus or Comitatus Redensis which was the Razès...Yes. The city of Rhedae which held the same importance as Carcassonne and Narbonne...No !

so let's get to the point.

All you latin scholars and google latin dictionary readers out there who fancy a go at translating ...give it a shot.


Inde (From there - thence - since) revidentes (come back to see plural) te,(in - into) Carcassonna, (Carcassonne) Rhedasque (carriage) Moenibus (away from these fortified walls) inferimus (first-person plural present active indicative of īnferō - to carry in ? ) nos,(we or us) cito, (to move - quickly, soon) Narbo ( Narbonne) tuis ( you, yours)"


string it all together and there are two cities and one carriage.


for those who see "Rhedasque" as a city, think again.



"Laudabunt alii currus rhedasque sonantes!"

"porras , atría, rhedasque Magnatuin velut obildebant."

"et carros rhedasque pro vallo obiecerant, accessit acie instructa,"

"mille camelis impedimenta eius portantibus, rhedasque fecum ducentas trahebat"

"Non hommes rhedasque velint."




etc etc.... Rhedasque is a mode of transport, a four wheeled carriage, not a missing city in the Razès.



Sheila wrote:
" Mox sedes Narbona tuas urbemque decoram tangimus

Inde revidentes te, Carcassona, Rhedasque

Moenibus inferimus nos cito, Narbo tuis"



"Narbonne soon your beautiful city we reach

From there we come back to see thee Carcassonne,

from which carriages are taking us from the walls speedily, to you Narbonne "



So Théodulf and co. are speeding away from Carcassonne on their way to Narbonne, but they will be back on the return journey by the sounds of it.


Sheila wrote:
Around about 798 the emperor Charlemagne sent Théodulf and Leidrade off into the Narbonnaise as judicial investigators, to observe, take note and then reform the administration down in the provinces.
On his return, Théodulf composed a poem of 956 verses entitled " Paraenesis ad judices" (exhortation to the Judges) which is basically a report and instructions directed at the magistrates to get their act together.

Théodulf describes the itinerary he and his companion took, and makes notes of all the principle towns and cities they visited...viz.... Vienne, Orange, Avignon, Nîmes, Agde, Bézizrs, Narbonne, Carcassonne, Arles, Marseille and Aix.


Different copies of the Paraenesis ad judiceshave variant spellings of Rhedasque ...seems it can also be spelled as Redasque.



Image



And here from César's Gallic Wars... a four wheeled coach.

Image



...and here..

http://books.google.fr/books?id=7upAdvz ... ue&f=false

Sheila wrote:
Common consensus might be based on a simple mistranslation.

The verse in question from Théodulf's Paraenesis ad judices was written at the turn of the IX century and first put into print in 1598.
Since that publication and it's commentary by Pierre Daniel the word "Redasque" or "Rhedasque" has been taken to mean a city mentioned in the same breath as Carcassonne and Narbonne and has been repeated by historians and scholars ever since.


This verse holds the earliest mention of Rhedae as an "unknown city" rather than the "Pagus Redensis" which if you have read my posts above you will know that i don't have a problem with.


Lugdunum Bataviorum ( Leyden) 1618.... second printing, the first being Paris 1598.

ImageImage

Rhedasque = "with carriages"

A quick summary = there never was a city called Rhedae


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