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PostPosted: 29 May 2014 10:31 pm 
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Before bergeredearcadies recent post about Serres I hadnt paid any attention to it.
But now I think this village deserves it's own thread. And, Hans probably want to keep his thread strictly with Tarot-angle-stuff.

Thats why I started this thread.

Was Rhedae at Serres?

I dont expext it to fill up fast, since there didnt seem to be much interest of the town.
Still, Serres looks like a place that has been greatly - and wrongly - neglected in RLC-research? It deserves a closer look.

(Yeah, Hans, even though I still believe more in other places, I am getting a lot more interested in Serres after seeing this)

Why?

THE CHURCH NAME!
The church in Serres is dedicated to St Pierre, to St Peter.
Think about it, what a great coincidence since it is said that the second church in RLC (the one from which only parts of an arch or wall is said to remain today) was named Saint Peters and destroyed when the supposed "RLC-Rhedae" was sacked.

Anyone know the historic source of this?
• Did RLC really have a church of St Pierre that was sacked?
• Or is it Rhedae that had a St Pierre-church, according to the story? A church which only has been associated with RLC since its been suggested RLC was Rhedae?

CHURCH EXTERIOR
I am no expert and I am probably wrong - but the church itself look like it dates from roman times? It does look very very old. And it reminds one - a little - of the the RLC church.

Image

CHURCH INTERIOR
Maybe someone with greater knowledge could say something about these crosses in the church?
I search but cant find anything about that double cross. And there are more familiar crosses too.

Image

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THE RED CITY
Rhedae means chariot.

In latin (and english and perhaps some other language too) red is translated as red.
In my native language for example, red is "röd". in many other european languages too it's a similar word that sounds a lot like "red".
What if the Rhedae was "the red city" and did not take it's name from chariots but from the colour instead?
In the area of Serres there is lot of red sand and red rocks.
Just watch a satellite image, look north and northwest. It's impossible to miss the red serpent of rocks and sand that twist and turn through the valleys and hills and makes half a circle around Serres.
If you build a city with this material, the city would indeed look like a red city.

Image

Image

THE VILLAGE AND THE AREA AROUND IT
Repeated(from other thread): As Hans pointed out, what you could read from the description of Rhedea (Boudet?):

"She lay on the edge of a hill and had a circular plan. In the west it was bounded by a semi-circular rampart and the east side formed the steep edge of the hill as a natural boundary.
In front of the western rampart was a broad natural trench in which flowed a small river.
There were two gates, one in the north and one in the south.
The ditch in front of the south gate was spanned by a stone arch bridge that led to the gatehouse.
Over the centuries, the hooves of the horses engraved a groove in the bridge plate."

There is a hill edge to the east-northeast, above Serres. And there seems to be a small river on the western side too, according to IGN.
On aerial photos from 1976 - with less vegetation - you can pick out some old formations on the plateau itself. Hard to tell what they are, walls, fences, ditches…?

Image

BLOCKS, OLD ROADS, ELEVATION DIFFERENCES...

When you take a tour of the village you are bound to notice the many differences in elevations, the layers.
The roads are elevated and you will spot many small places of the ground suddenly changing height. The kind you would expect to find in a lost city, buried under soil, farmland and a village.
There are also piles of building blocks lying around on many places.
If you would make a dig, would you find more ruins and remains of houses, streets, roads, walls?

Here are some examples - but you can find a lot more if you want to:

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PostPosted: 30 May 2014 6:26 am 
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Quote:
As Hans pointed out, what you could read from the description of Rhedea (Boudet?):

"She lay on the edge of a hill and had a circular plan. In the west it was bounded by a semi-circular rampart and the east side formed the steep edge of the hill as a natural boundary.
In front of the western rampart was a broad natural trench in which flowed a small river.
There were two gates, one in the north and one in the south.
The ditch in front of the south gate was spanned by a stone arch bridge that led to the gatehouse.
Over the centuries, the hooves of the horses engraved a groove in the bridge plate."

Good refection Barbarian,
but remember that the stoneblocks in the region look like man made. But they are natural formed by erosion.

No, it's not from Boudet.
I am an old member of the German Castles Association. And we have a large archieve, collected by the founder Bodo Ebhardt in the early 20th century.

http://www.deutsche-burgen.org/ (also in english)

I found it deep down in old pachements.
Our founder (Bodo Ebhardt https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kqpcbqi8ay4j ... bhardt.jpg) was an architect in Berlin in the times of the nazi regime. Could be, that he has contact to the circle of Otto Rahn.

Serres is "glas" and the glashouse in the Belvedere could be connected to that name.

regards Hans

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PostPosted: 30 May 2014 1:44 pm 
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hans peper wrote:
Good refection Barbarian,
but remember that the stoneblocks in the region look like man made. But they are natural formed by erosion.


I know. I left out those. These ones are either:
## Concentrated piles of stone blocks on elevated ground, near roads and tracks.
## Parts where you actually can see they have been parts of walls, "glued togheter" - dont know the english word for that.
## Single rocks which have been used to mark the edges of roads and tracks.

hans peper wrote:
No, it's not from Boudet.
I am an old member of the German Castles Association. And we have a large archieve, collected by the founder Bodo Ebhardt in the early 20th century.

http://www.deutsche-burgen.org/ (also in english)

I found it deep down in old pachements.
Our founder (Bodo Ebhardt https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kqpcbqi8ay4j ... bhardt.jpg) was an architect in Berlin in the times of the nazi regime. Could be, that he has contact to the circle of Otto Rahn.

Serres is "glas" and the glashouse in the Belvedere could be connected to that name.

regards Hans


That seem like a nice site and organisation. Finally I got use for my 6 years of German lessons in school :lol:

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PostPosted: 30 May 2014 10:18 pm 
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Nice pictures of Serres, but wouldn't be too sure about it once having been part of a much larger settlement, still less a city. It's a pretty typical French village - chateau, church and much farmland. Regarding the irregular elevations, layers of terrain and the blocks and ruins you highlight, bear in mind natural erosion, and terracing for agriculture (north out of the village is covered in vines, they grow a lot of wine around there), and the effect of post-industrial depopulation in places like that. I agree that the church is an interesting building. There are good views of Cardou from the north, and also Roc Negre.

hans peper wrote:
Serres is "glas" and the glashouse in the Belvedere could be connected to that name.


And a city in the Macedonian region of Greece. It could be named after that.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2014 10:57 pm 
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richard.webster wrote:
Nice pictures of Serres, but wouldn't be too sure about it once having been part of a much larger settlement, still less a city. It's a pretty typical French village - chateau, church and much farmland. Regarding the irregular elevations, layers of terrain and the blocks and ruins you highlight, bear in mind natural erosion, and terracing for agriculture (north out of the village is covered in vines, they grow a lot of wine around there), and the effect of post-industrial depopulation in places like that. I agree that the church is an interesting building. There are good views of Cardou from the north, and also Roc Negre.


I'm not sure of anything on this. Just a wild speculation on Rhedae.
We do need to keep looking for the location of the city - if there ever was a Rhedae. Are we even sure of that?

Serres do - however - have more small steps of elevations and layers than other surrounding villages. That is of course a very personal opinion.
There is a special large place near the villiage I hope we can talk more about. I'll get back to you on that place soon.

And agreed - the church is very interesting.
Someone with the knowledge - all you symbol experts here - please step forward and tell us about those crosses in the church. Specially the double cross. And the church itself. Can you tell from which century it is?

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PostPosted: 30 May 2014 11:18 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
I'm not sure of anything on this. Just a wild speculation on Rhedae.
We do need to keep looking for the location of the city - if there ever was a Rhedae. Are we even sure of that?


Of its existence? Yes, I believe so. But not its location. The area around Limoux has also been mooted as a possibility in the past. And up behind Coustaussa.

Barbarian Storm wrote:
Serres do - however - have more small steps of elevations and layers than other surrounding villages. That is of course a very personal opinion.


You certainly know it better than I do, so I'm interested to hear you say that. It's mostly somewhere I've driven through going between Arques and Couiza. I've only walked around it properly once, in the rain, and along the narrow road that leads north out the back, where you get some good views. And the bridge is lovely. The church was locked, as they so often are around there, and I know very little about it.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2014 7:24 am 
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richard.webster wrote:
...Of its existence? Yes, I believe so. But not its location. The area around Limoux has also been mooted as a possibility in the past. And up behind Coustaussa....


Behind Coustaussa ?

There is no place for Rhedae, because of Camp Grande's neolithic buildings !

Hans

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PostPosted: 31 May 2014 7:54 am 
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hans peper wrote:
richard.webster wrote:
...Of its existence? Yes, I believe so. But not its location. The area around Limoux has also been mooted as a possibility in the past. And up behind Coustaussa....


Behind Coustaussa ?

There is no place for Rhedae, because of Camp Grande's neolithic buildings !


Beyond that, on the upper slopes, where there are vestiges of terracing and walling, similar to those under discussion above in respect of Serres. Discussed at some length in Lincoln's Holy Place, and Key to the Sacred Pattern. I'm not saying that it is the location, far from it, merely that it has been suggested as a possibility by others.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2014 8:30 am 
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richard.webster wrote:
Beyond that, on the upper slopes, where there are vestiges of terracing and walling, similar to those under discussion above in respect of Serres. Discussed at some length in Lincoln's Holy Place, and Key to the Sacred Pattern. I'm not saying that it is the location, far from it, merely that it has been suggested as a possibility by others.


Thanks

Hans

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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2014 10:50 pm 
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How thick are housing walls in the Aude?

There's a rather thick one in Serres village.
And it lines up with a feature on the farmland.

See here:

Overview:

Image

Also, see the crop marks in the picture below (they are a lot more interesting than the wall itself. Do you see them?):

Image


The wall (please - do not pay attention to the white box).
You might notice that the wall is longer than the building:

Image

Image

It does seem thicker on one side:

Image


The wall and the field:

Image

Image

View from field side:

Image

Image

Could of course be that the road at the house once went in a straight line through the field.
Or - the wall extended though the field.

Hopefully more to come. I am preparing a longer post with more things to consider.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 6:16 am 
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Let's see what we have. :shock:

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 1:58 pm 
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hans peper wrote:
Let's see what we have. :shock:

Hans


There will be more, I just need some time.
But I will probably just have proved myself stupid, when all is said and done. You'll know when to start laughing :lol:

Ultimately - in a perfect world - when looking for Rhedae you would hope to find something that looks like Reccopolis, the Visigoth city in Spain that only is partly excavated. It's located near Zoritas de los Canes.
The farmland around Reccopolis do remind a little about the Aude landscape, though it seems to be more dry in Spain.
However, the world isn't perfect.

Reccopolis:

Image

Image

The way I understand it, more structures like these are/could be buried under the ground around Reccopolis.

So if you follow my reasoning, we need to search for structures in the Aude area that can be seen from above in the form of crop marks.
Crop marks are usually only visible in certain soil, and only under ideal conditions.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 2:14 pm 
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Don't forget that Fédié speaks about: Rhedae, la cité des chariots.

And why do you think that Rhedae would be so important to localize? Don't you think that a "cité des chariots" would perfectly fit into the RLC area, also purely theoretically? Don't you think that the only reason to promote "Rhedae" is to highlight the importance of RLC itself?

Boudet writes in his book about the Cromleck of Rennes les Bains. Rennes les Bains is therefore signed and sealed for the eternity. There is no Cromleck at RLB. Important? Not really.

Fédié writes in his book about Rennes le Chateau, the former Rhedae. Rennes le Chateau is therefore signed and sealed for the eternity. A lot of people doubt that RLC was the former Rhedae. Important? Not really.


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 2:17 pm 
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So, are there crop marks in the fields of Serres? Marks that show an old settlement buried beneth the ground?
Or is is this just farmland being used and forming patterns by machines and agriculture?

Difficult to say, perhaps, but I would say yes: There are some very clear crop marks here.

I am going through aerial photographs dating from the 40:ies to find symmetric and geometric patterns.

Starting with the wall line drawn in one the posts above, here are the some obvious crop marks (at least some of them).

Image

Image

So far I haven't had time to cover more than a tiny area of the fields.

See for yourself, I think you might find something that looks like the drawing above.
But remember photo needs to be of higher res, and not all crops, climate, season show marks.


(this is not the longer post I am preparing, that concerns another part of the village)

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 2:31 pm 
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fmh999 wrote:
Don't forget that Fédié speaks about: Rhedae, la cité des chariots.

And why do you think that Rhedae would be so important to localize? Don't you think that a "cité des chariots" would perfectly fit into the RLC area, also purely theoretically? Don't you think that the only reason to promote "Rhedae" is to highlight the importance of RLC itself?

Boudet writes in his book about the Cromleck of Rennes les Bains. Rennes les Bains is therefore signed and sealed for the eternity. There is no Cromleck at RLB. Important? Not really.

Fédié writes in his book about Rennes le Chateau, the former Rhedae. Rennes le Chateau is therefore signed and sealed for the eternity. A lot of people doubt that RLC was the former Rhedae. Important? Not really.


Good points, fmh999. I don't know, to be honest.
A few weeks ago I was barely aware of Serres.

Why is it important to locate Rhedae? I am interested in barbarians - and visigoths in particular.
Most of all, Rhedae feels like a lose end, one important enough to locate. If there ever was a Rhedae?

RLC and the plateau of RLC must be one of the most well searched places of France? Still no signs of larger settlement there?
So we must look for alternatives.
The Limoux-suggestion seems so boring. Others can investigate that.

And we have Rennes-le-Chateau and Rennes-les-Bains very close to Serres. Maybe - if Rhedae was at Serres - all 3 villages was named after Rhedae?

Serres - at the foot of Cardou. The mountain peak dominates the view from the village.
What a mighty guardian, when speaking about symbols :lol:

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 2:37 pm 
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Have anyone given some though to this cross?

Image

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 2:39 pm 
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Ich bin gespannt ! ( I'm curious )

It looks good until now. :P

Plesae post the old air pics according to this post.


At fmh : If we locate Rhedae, we have the basements of Rhedae (cellis redis arcis), you know what it is about ?

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 2:42 pm 
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The difference between the spanish settlement and here is, that Rhedae is rubbed out from man, to make it difficult to find.

The tracks are more "fine".

Hans

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 5:41 pm 
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Reddis, Regis, Cellis, Arcis? the only source for this is Plantard...so I do not really pay attention to it (personal point of view only of course).

Barbarian: I am also very much interested in the remains of he Visigoths...but if I would be you, there are much more interesting and possible areas to do your research than Serres.

The mystery of RLC (and RLB) does not mean that the final spot is also in this area. The clues yes, but not necessarly the underground temple.


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 8:12 pm 
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hans peper wrote:
Ich bin gespannt ! ( I'm curious )

It looks good until now. :P

Plesae post the old air pics according to this post.



Sure, I'll shortly show and explain, though it has to be with some examples.

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Last edited by Barbarian Storm on 02 Jun 2014 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 8:28 pm 
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fmh999 wrote:
Reddis, Regis, Cellis, Arcis? the only source for this is Plantard...so I do not really pay attention to it (personal point of view only of course).

Barbarian: I am also very much interested in the remains of he Visigoths...but if I would be you, there are much more interesting and possible areas to do your research than Serres.

The mystery of RLC (and RLB) does not mean that the final spot is also in this area. The clues yes, but not necessarly the underground temple.



Mainly I am looking for the remains of a larger settlement, if there is one at all. I am not so sure of it.
And - possibly - the tomb of a visigoth king. And that's even less likely :roll:
I not so sure we are looking for an underground temple, but then again, it is as much a possibility as anything else.

As for the location, I've been all over the place with maps, aerial photos and satellite images.
After a lot of extremely pointless time spent over Montsegur I made a rule for myself: It has to be in walking distance from RLC.
Any suggestion where to look, fmh999?

As for the search for a larger settlement, it has to fullfill some logical criterias: Be close to a river (the one at Serres is almost too small but might work). There has to be enough space, preferably flat space, which rules out RLB. So of course, the most logical place would be alongside the Aude.

Nevertheless, Serres is very interesting. I hope you will agree.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 9:09 pm 
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hans peper wrote:
Plesae post the old air pics according to this post.


As I said, it's difficult to see the crop marks.
And I am a 100% amateur.
Maybe an expert could rule this out in 2 seconds.

Anyway, the conditions and climate for crop marks to show has be ideal. And not all soil will work.
We look for geometric shapes and figures.

I mainly used:
http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/accueil
...with max zoom.
Those pictures, I belive, are taken under the best conditions to find crop marks.

I started with that wall line I showed in another post. Follow that, and you come to a square.
It's difficult to argue that this one looks like a crop mark:

Image

Image

From that I found some other visible shapes too to the right and above it.

Then I compared with google(work best) and Bing satellite images.

Some lines show but not all lines are seen on google and Bing.

Image

Then I compared with the old aerial photos - dating from the 40:ies - that in many cases are blurry and not so high-res.

I tried to find the lines once again. Some I did, some I didnt. Some lines are just shown on that french map site, while some lines occur again.

Exampel:

Image

Image

Image

Image

What I mainly used the old aerial images for is the other part of town. Around the chateau, to find out what the castle area looked like earlier.

And the chateau should be the next thing to discuss.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 10:18 pm 
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Ok, let's get it done with. This is when I make a fool of myself. You'll be able to make me throw at least half of it in the garbage can right away.

I belive that the second most interesting building in the area - after the church - is the chateau, supposed to be from the 16:th century (correct? Anyone have other sources on that?)
The chateau might or might not be of interest.
But the area is.
Were there older buidlings here, before the chateau was built?

THE OWNER
I read that an actor, Jean Deschamps (dead 2007), owned the chateau. He once helped start the festival at Carcassonne too?
Tried to find more info about him, but apart from wiki, there is unfortunately not much to be read about him in english.
I might have translated this wrong, but supposely he repaired the castle, got it back into shape, and built a theatre on his estate.

If I didnt know so little about mr Deschamps I could draw a parallell to a priest who also repaired his estate and undetook building projects. But acting do pay better than being a priest, so perhaps it's not so strange after all.

By any chance, does anyone know if mr Deschamps bought the castle or if he inherited it? And what was his involvement in the Carcassonne festival?
Just for fun I also tried to find a connection between Deschamps and another actor, Philippe de Cherisey. Just to see if they knew each other from the movie/theatre biz. So far, no luck.

Now back to the chateau itself.

AN UPPER CITY IN THE "GARDEN"?
The most striking feature is the huge castle garden.
It's about half the size of Le Cité in Carcassonne, and seems to be on elevated ground with varying degrees of slopes around it.
The "plateau" on which the garden lies extends even further north with clearly visible rounded edges.

I'm no castle expert. But I know there are some very talanted castle people here on the forum - please comment on this:
When comparing the Serres chateau to the other castles in the area you notice some differences.
Why is the castle garden so large? Arques is not like this, the one in Couiza isnt, and so on...
On the old photos it appears large even in the 40:ies and 50:ies (but somewhat different. See the pictures).

Also see the very special layout of the garden, and to the north beyond. I dont know what it is, but there's something disturbing about the garden layout seen from above. Cant get it out of my head, but I cant say what it is since I dont know. (very bad english, cant explain the feeling better than that)

If there ever was a larger settlement here, I propose that stronghold was located in the chateau garden "plateau" along with an "upper city".
There also various points in the garden where you can see remains of "something" under the vegetation and the growing tree lines of today. That is even more visible when looking at older pictures with no trees.
Examples:

Chateau and its garden today:

Image

Image

In the 80:ies:

Image

In the 70:ies:

Image

And - in the 40:ies and 50:ies. Looks a little different here? Is it just the resolution, or something else:

Image

Image

Castle seen from the theatre:

Image

The theatre:

Image

Serres - seen from peak of Cardou:

Image

Image

WALL AND ANOTHER BUILDING

Now let's move to the side of the chateau that faces south:

Image

Image

Here are the remains of a little wall and a semi ruined house.
Could something of that be older than the chateau?

OVERVIEW
What do we have so far?

Here I outlined the points of interest at the chateau, the shorp edges and slopes north of the chateau, the wall-line, the crop marks, the church.

Image

The elevated plateau of the chateau area:

Image

So is this just nonsense, or the shape of a larger settlement taking form?
I know, probably just nonsense. Still...

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2014 10:25 pm 
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And - another thing.

Surely the church - the rounded part - do look damaged and repaired at some point:

Image

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2014 5:14 am 
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http://www.lindependant.fr/2011/07/26/l ... ,45570.php


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