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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2016 1:12 pm 
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High King

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Barbarian Storm says:
Quote:
Though I am trying to catch up with any possible al-Andalus-tracks in the region for a reason.

Aha!

So, there is an agenda. :P


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2016 9:06 pm 
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Grand Master

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Wombat wrote:
Barbarian Storm says:
Quote:
Though I am trying to catch up with any possible al-Andalus-tracks in the region for a reason.

Aha!

So, there is an agenda. :P


Perhaps 8)
Some ideas, at least.

Is there any truth behind the stories of melted Arabian gold coin-ingots found in the valley?
I have so far failed to find the source behind those claims.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 9:48 am 
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High King

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BS, presumably you saw this spot in your recent visit?

Image


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 10:40 am 
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Queen Bee
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On the plan cadastral, parcel N° 36.

The tree is ancient but the circle isn't.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 10:59 am 
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One may spot these kind of round-shaped structures also near RLC. I think they are quite common in that region. Personnally I think there is a link (timewise) between them and the Capitelles.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 11:21 am 
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Yes, I am familiar with that circle near Lavaldieu. It's rather modern, isn't it? It's missing on the earliest aerial photos so I've been ignoring it so far.

But if you study the Le Bezu circles you will see that these are different in the way that they look like genuine crop marks, clustered together. Then again – they don't have to be crop marks – but until I hear a better explanation... Some of these circles are irregular, some look to be perfect circles. If they are crop marks - they once consisted of wood or were ditches - since the lines are dark.

I know what you are suggesting - that these circles might not be interesting since they are such a common sight here?
Just like the square, the circle is a universal shape used in construction since the dawn of civilization. All you need to do to construct a circle is to choose the location of it's centre, then it almost makes itself, use a rope etc... Very simple.

I know tons of circular shapes of all sizes over the region, once they were built for very different purposes. We can ignore most of these circles, they aren't interesting to us.
But then there's some – Le Bezu-circles included – that I'd like to know more about.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 11:24 am 
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fmh999 wrote:
One may spot these kind of round-shaped structures also near RLC. I think they are quite common in that region. Personnally I think there is a link (timewise) between them and the Capitelles.


Yes, I believe that too.
But these are stones, right? If forming crop marks, they'd be negative crop marks.

If I remember correctly there should be a few positive crop marks too – like the ones at Bezu - on the RLV valley too? But my memory could be wrong.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 11:25 am 
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And - repeating my request:
Does anyone have a source for the supposed findings of half melted arabian gold coin-ingots in the Le Bezu valley?
8)

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 11:52 am 
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Queen Bee
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It was in 1850 ....an amalgam of Marabotins were found, gold coins that were more or less melted together...there have been a few gold caches found around the area in the last 20 years or so.

Marabotinus, maurabotinus, marmotinus, marbotinus

http://portail.atilf.fr/cgi-bin/getobje ... ata/image/


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 12:05 pm 
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Queen Bee
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I wouldn't call the area these Marabotins were found in the Le Bezu valley however.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 12:30 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
I wouldn't call the area these Marabotins were found in the Le Bezu valley however.


But close, right?

I remember about around 1850 too, but I now I fail to find the source for the findings.
In your opinion, are the stories are generally considered to be true?

And thank you.

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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 12:31 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Yes, they seem to be true.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 1:52 pm 
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High King

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Sheila says:
Quote:
maurabotinus

Quick Google translate to save time:

Quote:
MARABOTIN, s. m. (Mon.) name of an ancient gold coin of Spain and Portugal. Marabotinus, maurabotinus, marmotinus, marbotinus, & c. Ducange appears to me to be right to conjecture that marabotin or maurabotin, mean booty taken from the Moors, the spoils of the Moors, and we named this coin of that name, because it was made of gold taken from the Moors. So it's a coin from Spain. Henry II. King of England & Duke of Aquitaine, gave an award in the year 1177 between Alfonso, king of Castile, and Sancho, king of Navarre, in which the first of these kings is obliged to pay in the second, the pension 3000 marabotins. Or any appearance that the king of England had forced the King of Castile to pay a pension to the King of Navarre coin stranger? Queen Blanche of Castile, at the end of the thirteenth century, was endowed with 24000 marabotins. Several titles of kings of Aragon in the same century, mention of marabotins who must return them. While it is often spoken of marabotins in several titles of the city of Montpeilier is because of Aragon kings have enjoyed long time in this city. Hence also comes marabotins that were current in France in the neighboring provinces of the Pyrenees. Portugal also had its marabotins.
It is not possible of knowing what was the value of constantly marabotins, either in Spain or in Portugal or France, because it felt good variations. We only know that in 1213, 3160 marabotins of Portugal pesoient 56 [p. 65] marks of gold; and each marc contenoit 60 marabotins which therefore pesoient each 76 grains.
The consuls of Montpellier promised to Innocent III. two marks of gold, with 100 marabotins, or as they express themselves, masamutins to the grounds. It would be in this calculation that 46 grains for each grain marabotin. François - Nicolas Arragon, who was able to made a cardinal in 1356, tells us that gold marabotin was worth a florin, which at that time - there was sin of gold, and weighed 66 grains. It is said in the history of Britain from the same century, the marabotin was a gold besan, unum auri byzantium, quod marabotin nuncupatur.

From the Moors. As in La Maurine?

And Barbarian Storm asks:

Quote:
And - repeating my request:
Does anyone have a source for the supposed findings of half melted arabian gold coin-ingots in the Le Bezu valley?

Stanley James in "The treasure Maps of Rennes-le-Chateau" speaks of the Bezis valley as I recollect - between Berco Grande and Berco Petite.

And, of course, there was the gold statuette found near the Couleurs stream. It had to come from somewhere.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 3:13 pm 
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Queen Bee
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http://www.rhedesium.com/the-location-a ... ntury.html

English translation of a text that will answer many questions on this subject.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 3:17 pm 
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Queen Bee
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read it carefully Mr Storm.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2016 9:29 pm 
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Grand Master

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I did read that text before, years ago. I've forgotten a lot of the details.
But you're right. I really enjoyed reading it again.
Some very useful stuff there to dig into.
This valley was really active once, wasnt it?

Although the translation answers a lot of questions, it raises even more.

So, from the text:
- The discoveriers of an ingot, as well as Arabic, Roman and Spanish medals were made close to the old Roman way near Parachou (just southeast of the Bezu valley).

- A gold ingot was found near the estate at "Charbonnieres" 1860. Does anyone know where that estate is? I've been searching tonight, but cannot seem to find it.

- The Templars used a lot of Saracen coins, the "gold morabotin", the value of which were seven times that of other coins in circulation.

- A quadrangular building foundation was found at the templars estate. The building could have been 15-20 meters high and it's assumed it was a Templar building. Can we locate the sheepfold the Roques-Rouge family wanted to build at the location of the discovery?

- There were 3 châteaus at the valley:
1) A western one, at the edge of the current hamlet, being the entrance to the valley.
2) One which today are the ruins at the rocky outcrop, wrongly called the "château of Le Bezu" but it's real name is Les Templiers/Tiplies (as seen on maps)?
3) Where in fact the real château - according to the text - was at the summit on the most western hill of the Le Bezu hill chain? Would that then be on the peak that on maps is called "Le Jasse du Bezu"? Or at another place?
Number 1 supported number 3. They were close to each other.

This is very important. Did I understand all that about the castles correctly? Was not very easy to read. Will have to make some graphics of the fortifications if the summary above is correct.

- Part of the fortresses resisted the invading muslim attack, according to local tradition.

- La Jacotte was - like posted before - an inn (today there's a farm house there).

- An important route passed through the valley.

Then there's a lot more about the noble families and the Templars...

What important did I miss?

Wasnt there some controversy regarding the Templars at Le Bezu?

----more questions-----

So where did the gold ingots come from?

Why were they dropped and by who?

Do these ingots come from the same source that got the (Templarfriendly) Voisin family into trouble with the counterfeit affair? If the Voisin had coins made - of better quality than the official ones as the story goes - the gold used to create the goldrich coins have had to come from somwhere? (- The Templars used a lot of Saracen coins, the "gold morabotin", the value of which were seven times of the other coins in circulation.)

Wouldnt it be most likely that someone on the run, fleeing or in a hurry would be the only person to drop a gold ingot?

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016 9:19 am 
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Queen Bee
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Quote:
Does anyone know where that estate is? I've been searching tonight, but cannot seem to find it.

i'll message you

Quote:
a gold ingot


no, not an ingot....and it was found in a stream coated in tar/bitumen.

Quote:
but it's real name is Les Templiers/Tiplies


which is just piffle on the part of l'abbé Mazière...you need to take a lot of salt with his conclusions.

The name on the family gravestone at La Ferme des Tripliès is Triplié, an old family from Le Bézu, either spelled Tibliès or Triplié.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the Templiers.

Image


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016 12:39 pm 
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Grand Master

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Sheila wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone know where that estate is? I've been searching tonight, but cannot seem to find it.

i'll message you

Quote:
a gold ingot


no, not an ingot....and it was found in a stream coated in tar/bitumen.


Mazières states in was an ingot. What was it then, if not an ingot?

Sheila wrote:
Quote:
but it's real name is Les Templiers/Tiplies


which is just piffle on the part of l'abbé Mazière...you need to take a lot of salt with his conclusions.
Quote:


No doubt, I already jumped at some of the things he wrote.
I have a lot of problems puzzling together the castles in the valley like he describes them. Was the main fortress really on the hill to the west, directly above the hamlet? I have some huge initial problems with that.

Sheila wrote:
The name on the family gravestone at La Ferme des Tripliès is Triplié, an old family from Le Bézu, either spelled Tibliès or Triplié.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the Templiers.

Image


Yes, so the Templar link is rather weak, right?

Though I'd really like to know which location was turned into a sheepfold.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016 1:02 pm 
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Queen Bee
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sheila wrote:
an amalgam of Marabotins were found, gold coins that were more or less melted together

a half melted lump, not an ingot.

Quote:
Was the main fortress really on the hill to the west, directly above the hamlet?

The original Pierre d'Aniort stronghold was the small mountain itself, including the site of today's village.

Quote:
Though I'd really like to know which location was turned into a sheepfold.


the foundations of a fortified house or 'castel' were found at Les Tipliès when the Roques-Rougés wanted to build a sheepfold.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016 1:08 pm 
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High King

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Sheila wrote:
sheila wrote:
an amalgam of Marabotins were found, gold coins that were more or less melted together

a half melted lump, not an ingot.

Quote:
Was the main fortress really on the hill to the west, directly above the hamlet?

The original Pierre d'Aniort stronghold was the small mountain itself, including the site of today's village.

Quote:
Though I'd really like to know which location was turned into a sheepfold.


the foundations of a fortified house or 'castel' were found at Les Tipliès when the Roques-Rougés wanted to build a sheepfold.

Oh, Sheila.

You are amazing.

How do you know all this stuff?

This is Roger territory.

Can you give us all a reference?

(PS. Re: "’Charbonnieres’ 1860”, can I have a Message too? (I’ll keep it under my hat. OK? 8) ))


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016 4:58 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Nothing complicated dear Vombatus ... i research, i read and i remember everything.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016 8:56 pm 
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High King

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Wombat wrote:
Oh, Sheila.

You are amazing.

How do you know all this stuff?

This is Roger territory.

Can you give us all a reference?

(PS. Re: "’Charbonnieres’ 1860”, can I have a Message too? (I’ll keep it under my hat. OK? 8) ))


Roger ? Now there is a genuine RLC mystery. Whatever happened to him ? I believe he popped up briefly on some French site opining about Hautpouls or something. Truly missed, ditto Jake. "Will ye no' come back again ?"


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016 2:59 pm 
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High King

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Tomb and Chariot of Ancient Celtic Prince Unearthed in France
5 March 2015

Image

http://www.france24.com/en/20150305-fra ... ite-lavau/


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2016 11:27 pm 
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Grand Master

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well, it's back to square one at le Bezu. I think. :cry:

On the slopes of le Casteillas, the hill south of Rennes le Château, near the Soubirous farm, similar rings or circles can be a seen. Not nearly as symmetric and perfect as the ones at Bezu, but nevertheless, you can clearly see what they look like...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Must be some phenomena created by farming or by nature itself.
Human hair on the lens or in the photo studio?
What remains of the army camp of Henry of Trastamara?
Or what????

What's very funny is that just a few meters to the northwest, at foot of the Casteillas climb, you have not only one but two of those very special symbols:

Image

Sheila wrote:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=48WH18g8OLsC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=IGN+symbole+pour+un+bouquet+d%27arbres&source=bl&ots=w6fdQyKgxJ&sig=NOp6X-XvM0te4ijCgwL2NpoMCaM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirw6OPg7bJAhXGWBQKHej6DM8Q6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=IGN%20symbole%20pour%20un%20bouquet%20d'arbres&f=false

That sign is marked as a "bouquet d'arbres" ...one of only 20 marked on the IGN maps for the whole of France - and marked thus because the trees & vegetation have a habit of invading abandoned ruins and 'cos the géometrists haven't hauled their asses up there to take a proper look at what's there.


This is driving me insane – even more than I already was - not knowing what it is that we look at when we see the circles and rings (also you can spot some 90 degree angles and straight lines too).

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2016 6:21 am 
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Hi Barbarian,

again a good found.

It's amazing with that circles.

Pui it on the list of things, which must be checked next expedition.

best regards Hans

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