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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 7:09 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Just ask the landowners nicely.... tell them what you're planning to do ....(just a little "golf" and all divots will be replaced)...never tackle an electric fence alone...you could fry yourself!
I'll come with you if you need a translator.


8)
Maybe. I tried that with the house owner at Montferrand and it went smoothly. (though I am sure he only understood 2% of what I was saying).
So yes, translation would be needed :lol:

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 7:44 pm 
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and we could check this out at the same time...

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 7:52 pm 
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Hmmm waters going down at a certain location?

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 7:58 pm 
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A massive "perte" @ you-know-where.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 8:11 pm 
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Yes think so.

But that drawing... La vialasse is very high up. Maybe it is? Maybe the falling river makes it difficult to see.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 11:04 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Full circles - though some seem to overlap....Just ask the landowners nicely.... tell them what you're planning to do ....(just a little "golf" and all divots will be replaced)...never tackle an electric fence alone...you could fry yourself!
I'll come with you if you need a translator.


Interpreter.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2016 11:17 pm 
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The white and the red - your two intertwining serpents!!

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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2016 1:02 am 
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Sheila wrote:
Full circles - though some seem to overlap....Just ask the landowners nicely.... tell them what you're planning to do ....(just a little "golf" and all divots will be replaced)...never tackle an electric fence alone...you could fry yourself!
I'll come with you if you need a translator.


Respect to landowners, history and nature.
No, no risk I'll turn myself into tempura.

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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016 6:10 pm 
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Very interesting work Mr. Storm.


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2016 10:34 pm 
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I will keep looking into it.
It's very difficult to make something out of the patterns. Though you can easily see an old path, road, ditch, canal, bush line or whatever it was going west-east/southeast – two parallell dark lines with a darker area within (see photoshoped images) - something which isn't there today on normal maps/aerials. Some of the circles seem attached/connected to it. Though, these lines and the circles could be from completely different times... The lines could be overlapping the circles and vice versa. Or, there could be a connection in time and purpose.

TCJ wrote:
Could be the remains of a fortress and outlying buildings or cattle enclosures as like seen below.
Scroll down almost halfway to Barnhill - Glen More - Glenelg - Dun Grianach
http://forum.andrewgough.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4429&start=225


More from England. Perhaps not the perfect match but I found some nice similarities here:

http://www.parks.ox.ac.uk/crops/#slide- ... llery-1443

And then I thought of an old link someone posted here some time ago:

http://www.sciencealert.com/a-2-000-yea ... d-in-spain

Take a look at the shape of those water tanks...! Love it, but then again I am obsessed with Roman water tanks 8)
Too bad the half circles are oriented the wrong way at le Bezu (if you look for similarities with the water tank aerial in the link). And there's really no possible and logic water sources at the Bezu spots – from where to get the stored water – unless I am missing something major.

And why are the visible parts of all the circles oriented - more or less - towards the same direction? (except for perhaps the small ones that are difficult to see very well) Are they natural after all?

Not only do we need to dig. We need to get a drone with a camera up in the air as well.

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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2016 10:59 pm 
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Just like Sheila said, the lines and circles in Bezu valley are dark - and therefore positive crop marks.
What was once here, was most likely ditches or wooden structure - built with wooden poles - or both.
Negative crop marks however - bright ones - on aerial photos have stone and rock below.

So, in a landscape full of rock, who would use wood? Or construct round ditches?

Looking at and isolating the crops marks, here's a few conclusions so far:
• The largest round one really seem to be round, and not fake round or somewhat irregular. It's really pi, although it does not make a full visible circle.
• I could be wrong but all the circles (or semicircles) seem to gather and form an irregular shape around a (closed) open area.
• It's easy to forget that these marks are on somewhat sloped terrain.
• Once, a pretty wide road, path, ditch, bush lane or something - 2 or 3 times the width of the current road a little to the SW, went in a somewhat west-direction in a very straight line.

So, what could this all be?
Here's the most likely alternatives so far:
1) Something natural. By nature itself or farming...
2) An old settlement of round wooden huts. Neolithic perhaps, built with wood? There are examples from western Europe that are pretty close in appearance. Although the large circle is too big to have been a house structure.
3) Neolithic burial ground. Again, there are examples that are pretty close in appearance from other places.
4) Old animal pens. This idea is growing on me. Animal pens, on the fields below the stronghold of Albedun, next to an old important road? And there is something North african/Arabian with these shapes and forms... but would moorish invaders have used wood to build animal pens? Rock should be easy to come by here, but who knows? And, in the case of this being old animal pens, they could originate from other periods too. Moorish is a just a thought, an idea, a suspicion so far.
5) A combination of some of the above.

So. Most the important question is: Why wood? If we assume wood was used.

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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2016 2:40 pm 
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Barbarian Storm asks:
Quote:
So. Most the important question is: Why wood? If we assume wood was used.

Keeping livestock in doesn't require a palisade or complete wall. A simple three rail fence will do that job very efficiently. However, a three rail fence will not keep predators out.

Wolves.

Image

Using timber to build a palisade is far more efficient than using stone. It's abundant, easily transported and easily erected. Three or four people can build a palisade in a matter of days. Try doing that with a dry stone wall.

Now, Wikipedia is not normally my favourite reference. However, in this regard it's probably as good as any (and citations are provided)

Quote:
The Wolves of Paris were a man-eating wolf pack that killed forty people in Paris in 1450. The animals entered the city during the winter through breaches in its walls. A wolf named Courtaud, or "Bobtail", was the leader of the pack. Reports of the animal suggested it was reddish in color. Eventually, the wolves were killed when Parisians, furious at the deaths, lured Courtaud and his pack into the heart of the city. There the Parisians stoned and speared the wolves to death in front of the Notre Dame Cathedra

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_of_Paris

Wolf hunting in France was first institutionalized by Charlemagne between 800–813, when he established the louveterie, a special corps of wolf hunters. The louveterie was abolished after the French Revolution in 1789, but was re-established in 1814. In 1883, up to 1,386 wolves were killed, with many more by poison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_wolf

In France, historical records compiled by rural historian Jean-Marc Moriceau indicate that during the period 1362–1918, nearly 7,600 people were killed by wolves, of whom 4,600 were killed by non-rabid wolves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_wolf


So, BS, my speculative response to your question is: wolves; timber; and efficiency.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 4:25 pm 
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Wombat wrote:
Barbarian Storm asks:
Quote:
So. Most the important question is: Why wood? If we assume wood was used.

Keeping livestock in doesn't require a palisade or complete wall. A simple three rail fence will do that job very efficiently. However, a three rail fence will not keep predators out.

Wolves.

Image

Using timber to build a palisade is far more efficient than using stone. It's abundant, easily transported and easily erected. Three or four people can build a palisade in a matter of days. Try doing that with a dry stone wall.

Now, Wikipedia is not normally my favourite reference. However, in this regard it's probably as good as any (and citations are provided)

Quote:
The Wolves of Paris were a man-eating wolf pack that killed forty people in Paris in 1450. The animals entered the city during the winter through breaches in its walls. A wolf named Courtaud, or "Bobtail", was the leader of the pack. Reports of the animal suggested it was reddish in color. Eventually, the wolves were killed when Parisians, furious at the deaths, lured Courtaud and his pack into the heart of the city. There the Parisians stoned and speared the wolves to death in front of the Notre Dame Cathedra

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_of_Paris

Wolf hunting in France was first institutionalized by Charlemagne between 800–813, when he established the louveterie, a special corps of wolf hunters. The louveterie was abolished after the French Revolution in 1789, but was re-established in 1814. In 1883, up to 1,386 wolves were killed, with many more by poison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_wolf

In France, historical records compiled by rural historian Jean-Marc Moriceau indicate that during the period 1362–1918, nearly 7,600 people were killed by wolves, of whom 4,600 were killed by non-rabid wolves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_wolf


So, BS, my speculative response to your question is: wolves; timber; and efficiency.


Could very well be the reason. If they indeed were animals pens.
I'm wondering if there ever were any armies that built these kind of animals pens at camps?

Would anyone know the exact route and position of the ancient road that went through the Le Bezu Valley? I am curious if it follows the one marked with purple on IGN maps or if it took a different direction? But perhaps that knowledge is lost in time?

Also, is there anything interesting anyone knows about an area on the other side of the hills, closer to Bugarach? On the maps, it's the area in the middle between Ruisseau de las Gourgues and the la Genivriere farm.
Maybe likely it does not carry anything worth knowing, but the layout of the land is so eye-catching. If you see it, you see it. If you don't, you're boring and lack imagination :lol:

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 5:09 pm 
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I already told you ....La Jacotte is on the roman road.

"sur le trajet de la voie romaine, le hameau de la Jacotte, au milieu duquel gisent les ruines d'une ancienne auberge, où racontent les, gens du pays, on détroussait les voyageurs soupçonnés de porter sur eux des sommes importantes. La voie romaine, par Saint-Just, le Bézu, la Jacotte, était le chemin le plus fréquenté du Roussillon à la Vallée de l'Aude, depuis les temps les plus reculés."



"Tout près, se trouvait la Jacotte, une grande auberge qui accueillait les pèlerins de Saint Jacques de Compostelle, fort nombreux à cette époque dans la vallée du Bézu."


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 5:27 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
Ruisseau de las Gourgues


That'll be the stream that comes down from Cugurou and the Col du moulin à vent


Yes, i see some circles in parcel N° 7.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 5:38 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
I already told you ....La Jacotte is on the roman road.

"sur le trajet de la voie romaine, le hameau de la Jacotte, au milieu duquel gisent les ruines d'une ancienne auberge, où racontent les, gens du pays, on détroussait les voyageurs soupçonnés de porter sur eux des sommes importantes. La voie romaine, par Saint-Just, le Bézu, la Jacotte, était le chemin le plus fréquenté du Roussillon à la Vallée de l'Aude, depuis les temps les plus reculés."



"Tout près, se trouvait la Jacotte, une grande auberge qui accueillait les pèlerins de Saint Jacques de Compostelle, fort nombreux à cette époque dans la vallée du Bézu."


Yes, I'm thinking about the straight wide parallel lines at the circles.
That is also close to la Jacotte and these lines look like they could be old road ditches for drainage.
If you follow the lines they disappear into the bushes and woodland.
I wonder if there's anything ahead of that.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 5:43 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
Ruisseau de las Gourgues


That'll be the stream that comes down from Cugurou and the Col du moulin à vent


Yes, i see some circles in parcel N° 7.


Parcels 48, 49, 50, 53, 55, 57, 58 also forms a shape. Very large, but...
And if you look carefully, there seems to be more than meets they eye at first on the fields of that bulge.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 5:47 pm 
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Quote:
I'm thinking about the straight wide parallel lines at the circles.
That is also close to la Jacotte and these lines look like they could be old road ditches for drainage.
If you follow the lines they disappear into the bushes and woodland.


overlay your parcelles cadastrales...they seem to be just old field lines or field ditches.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 5:54 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Quote:
I'm thinking about the straight wide parallel lines at the circles.
That is also close to la Jacotte and these lines look like they could be old road ditches for drainage.
If you follow the lines they disappear into the bushes and woodland.


overlay your parcelles cadastrales...they seem to be just old field lines or field ditches.


Yes, I know. Probably that's the way it is.
Maybe I'm tryin too hard to make certain pieces fit.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2016 11:17 pm 
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http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 021816.php

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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2016 6:33 am 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
....Maybe I'm tryin too hard to make certain pieces fit.


We all have the same problem. :mrgreen:

But it is okay, it's toasted !

If we haven't such kind of energy in us, we won't find anything.

best regards

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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2016 9:47 am 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-02/p-eoe021816.php

Read the paper:

Quote:
Because the palaeogenomic data support a North African paternal ancestry of the three individuals from the graves, we believe that they were Berbers integrated into the Arab army during its rapid expansion through North Africa.

The researchers have absolutely no evidence to support that contention.

Belief is not science. Is Archaeology?

How does material like this ever get through the peer review process? How does it get published?

And if that is not far-fetched enough the researchers go on to conclude:

Quote:
Despite the low number of Muslim graves discovered, we believe that these observations provide strong evidence for either the establishment of a garrison or a more long-term establishment of Muslim communities in Nimes.

And:

Quote:
Notably, the analyses confirm the Berber origin of some of the first Muslim troops spreading through Europe and also indicate the co-existence of communities in Nimes practicing Christian and Muslim funerary customs without any clear partition of their respective funerary spaces

Three anonymous skeletons? Three graves? Belief? That constitutes strong evidence?

Seriously?

Is there an agenda here?


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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2016 10:19 pm 
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Wombat wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-02/p-eoe021816.php

Read the paper:

Quote:
Because the palaeogenomic data support a North African paternal ancestry of the three individuals from the graves, we believe that they were Berbers integrated into the Arab army during its rapid expansion through North Africa.

The researchers have absolutely no evidence to support that contention.

Belief is not science. Is Archaeology?

How does material like this ever get through the peer review process? How does it get published?

And if that is not far-fetched enough the researchers go on to conclude:

Quote:
Despite the low number of Muslim graves discovered, we believe that these observations provide strong evidence for either the establishment of a garrison or a more long-term establishment of Muslim communities in Nimes.

And:

Quote:
Notably, the analyses confirm the Berber origin of some of the first Muslim troops spreading through Europe and also indicate the co-existence of communities in Nimes practicing Christian and Muslim funerary customs without any clear partition of their respective funerary spaces

Three anonymous skeletons? Three graves? Belief? That constitutes strong evidence?

Seriously?

Is there an agenda here?


What would the agenda be and why would there be an agenda? Aren't you seeing some ghosts here? 8)

I didn't think it was that bad. It's a big puzzle with a lot of pieces including good indicators like the DNA results and burial traditions.
In my opinion it's not a bad hypothesis at all. However, as often is the case with archeology, nothing is certain. Something that the authors also point out (and which I believe is the thing that made you jump?).
There were several parts which I found interesting.

Also, don't you feel that this period of time might be somewhat neglected by RLC researchers?

The Pyrenees have been borderland - a natural line of defense - for some 1200+ years, a border between several various shifting powers over the centuries.

The very first time it became a major border was during the time of the invasion of the Moors and under the rule of al-Andalus. Before that, the Pyrenees enjoyed Pax Romana and later it was a region in the middle of the Visigoth kingdom, far from the frontline.
Then came the muslim invasion, forever transforming these hills and mountains into a border that has lasted into our own modern day.

I am wondering, how many of the Pyrenean strongholds - perhaps like Le Bezu – saw it's first foundations stones put into place during the height of al-Andalus?

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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2016 4:09 am 
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Hi BS,

I have no problem with the carbon dating of the three skeletons; the determination of the period of their burial; the style of their burial; or, the DNA analysis that supports a North African origin for the three.

However, to conclude from that, on the basis of belief, that they were part of a Muslim military force based in Nimes is not supported by the evidence they present. It is pure conjecture. It’s not even an hypothesis.

That’s the point that I was making. They dressed that conclusion up with a cloak of irrelevant scientific analysis. Indeed, they actually say: “the bodies deposited in the graves…. did not present any osteological evidence of combat”. They then choose to ignore the lack of evidence when they draw their conclusion.

Yes, there was a strong Moorish/Muslim military presence in the Languedoc and in other parts of France. That’s what Charles Martel (the “Hammer”) dealt with. The history is strong on that.

Quote:
Also, don't you feel that this period of time might be somewhat neglected by RLC researchers?

Yes, I do. However, that may be because the English language material is somewhat limited. Perhaps there’s more in French.

The burial pits around RLC have been discussed superficially on another thread, as I recall, and the very minor evidence of a Moorish presence. Similarly, there’s been a brief discussion on the derivation of the name La Maurine and of burial pits in that location too. I recall that there's an oral tradition that a major battle with the Moors occurred there - but I've seen no evidence to support that either.

It is fair to say that serious archaeological research has been neglected generally around RLC. The low hanging fruit sits under the Church of Mary Magdalene. The greatest impact would be obtained by finding the burial crypt that’s recorded as being under the church. And some work around La Maurine might also give some useful results.

Finally, you made no comment on why you referenced this paper. On looking closely at it I first saw what I thought might have been your reason – that circular remnant at 3. Is that so?

Image


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2016 11:11 am 
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Wombat wrote:
Finally, you made no comment on why you referenced this paper. On looking closely at it I first saw what I thought might have been your reason – that circular remnant at 3. Is that so?


Hello, Wombat!
That's a great reply. I'll get back a little more in detail when I'm not at work.

However, I just found the story interesting in general. I didn't even see the circular in the map so that was not the reason.

Though I am trying to catch up with any possible al-Andalus-tracks in the region for a reason.
Your mentions are great. Please keep it coming, if you or anyone else knows more locations or knowledge linked to the arab/berber people in the region.

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