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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 7:19 am 
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Sheila wrote:
rain wrote:
A few years ago Sheila posted information about Mapping where someone was making corrections on their triangulations according to the region which was mountainous and causing the now famous curvature in the space/time continuum based on accelaration/gravitation pull. Now it was I believe before the General theory of relativity. So how did they know to compensate using curved triangulations without knowing the formula?



Sheila all those years ago wrote:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=H1xCAA ... al&f=false

regarding Abbé La Caille.... Despite his painstakingly exact work to measure this arc of meridian, Abbé de la Caille did not measure the deflection caused by gravity pulling the plumb bobs towards Table Mountain, Kapokberg and Riebeeck Kasteel, which caused errors in the results of his triangulation. When Lacaille had previously measured the arc of the meridian in France and other European countries, he found the Earth to be oblate. This agreed with Newton's theory, but Cassini, under whom he worked, did not believe it. Lacaille was thus astonished and disappointed by the results of the survey that he had done at the cape, which made the southern hemisphere appear to he pear shaped! In addition to the errors caused by plumb bob measurements being distorted on or near the mountains, it was only discovered recently that the measuring rule supplied to de la Caille was about ¼ of an inch in 6.4 feet (a toise) too long, which was not his fault.

So i wonder how far out his measurements were when he worked in the Razès ?

if you want to get the gist of what La Caille and Cassini were up to, but don't want to read the original link i gave (which is obviously in French) then you can cast a glance at this.
http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5461/


Thanks Sheila.

Unfortunately I can't seem to access the UNESCO reference: 5461.

Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 7:53 am 
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Sheila wrote:
rain wrote:
A few years ago Sheila posted information about Mapping where someone was making corrections on their triangulations according to the region which was mountainous and causing the now famous curvature in the space/time continuum based on accelaration/gravitation pull. Now it was I believe before the General theory of relativity. So how did they know to compensate using curved triangulations without knowing the formula?



Sheila all those years ago wrote:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=H1xCAA ... al&f=false

regarding Abbé La Caille.... Despite his painstakingly exact work to measure this arc of meridian, Abbé de la Caille did not measure the deflection caused by gravity pulling the plumb bobs towards Table Mountain, Kapokberg and Riebeeck Kasteel, which caused errors in the results of his triangulation. When Lacaille had previously measured the arc of the meridian in France and other European countries, he found the Earth to be oblate. This agreed with Newton's theory, but Cassini, under whom he worked, did not believe it. Lacaille was thus astonished and disappointed by the results of the survey that he had done at the cape, which made the southern hemisphere appear to he pear shaped! In addition to the errors caused by plumb bob measurements being distorted on or near the mountains, it was only discovered recently that the measuring rule supplied to de la Caille was about ¼ of an inch in 6.4 feet (a toise) too long, which was not his fault.

So i wonder how far out his measurements were when he worked in the Razès ?

if you want to get the gist of what La Caille and Cassini were up to, but don't want to read the original link i gave (which is obviously in French) then you can cast a glance at this.
http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5461/


Thanks Sheila.

How did he know it wasn't gravity? And the following passage all before "the General theory."

@Sheila, those are definitely rhetorical questions, I'm just amusing myself. :mrgreen:


Quote:
To the notes that follow, which I owe entirely to Father de la Caille, I have added some comments provided by Fouillée and by the memoirs of Abbé Delmas drawn up in 1709, but my gratitude towards the former is only increased by the light that he has shed on works whose significance I would never have seen if left to my own efforts.

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 9:12 am 
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Newton. Apple. Down.

Quote:
"after dinner, the weather being warm, we went into the garden, & drank thea under the shade of some appletrees, only he, & myself. amidst other discourse, he told me, he was just in the same situation, as when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. "why shd that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground," thought he to him self: occasion'd by the fall of an apple, as he sat in a comtemplative mood: "why shd it not go sideways, or upwards? but constantly to the earths centre? assuredly, the reason is, that the earth draws it. there must be a drawing power in matter. & the sum of the drawing power in the matter of the earth must be in the earths center, not in any side of the earth. therefore dos this earth|apple| fall perpendicularly, or toward the center. if matter thus draws matter; it must be in proportion of its quantity. therefore the apple draws the earth, as well as the earth draws the apple."

William Stukeley. Memoirs of Sir Isaac Newton's Life.

http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/v ... /OTHE00001


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 10:42 am 
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What Catholic Church built specifically for R.C.C. worship does not use any kind of Sacred Geometry?


thank you. A square is "sacred" a triangle is "sacred" a circle is "sacred" 3.14159265359..is "sacred"
1.61803398875 is "sacred". I think you'll find them used everywhere.

Quote:
Sacred geometry refers to geometric forms that were once used in the design of holy sites, including western churches and cathedrals


and every other building


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 11:19 am 
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Dav,
The term was misappropriated I think.
It seems that in days gone by, geometry was seen as a visible sign of the hand of a 'creator' - so geometry itself was seen as sacred as it revealed a facet of something that was undefinable.

Now, it seems that there's nothing 'mystical' in the laws of geometry unless that geometry is used in religious buildings.

Maybe it was 'venerated' as it was one of the earliest sciences to be understood - number and geometry - and implied law and order. Now we have a plethora of 'sciences' - each exposing different laws and properties - and they are all taken for granted. The law and order behind the sciences isn't seen as lifting the veil on the creator anymore these days - just a natural product of the sciences themselves.

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 12:24 pm 
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Swedish scientist Max Tegmark argues in his book that the universe, and therefore geometry, is nothing but math. Philosophy and science become one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/books ... .html?_r=0


Quote:
The other, by Mr. Tegmark, is a discussion of his controversial idea that reality itself is a mathematical structure.

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 12:42 pm 
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Quote:
Maybe it was 'venerated' as it was one of the earliest sciences to be understood - number and geometry - and implied law and order. Now we have a plethora of 'sciences' - each exposing different laws and properties - and they are all taken for granted. The law and order behind the sciences isn't seen as lifting the veil on the creator anymore these days - just a natural product of the sciences themselves.


that's a pretty good explanation. Boils down to a level of ignorance of science (not meaning that to sound as harsh as it sounds). I guess you could argue for intelligent design because of these laws but that would make all things sacred. To me applying "sacred" to geometry now is either a means to reinforce a theory or a lack of knowledge about the way these laws permeate everything.


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 1:19 pm 
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Davinho wrote:
Quote:
Maybe it was 'venerated' as it was one of the earliest sciences to be understood - number and geometry - and implied law and order. Now we have a plethora of 'sciences' - each exposing different laws and properties - and they are all taken for granted. The law and order behind the sciences isn't seen as lifting the veil on the creator anymore these days - just a natural product of the sciences themselves.


that's a pretty good explanation. Boils down to a level of ignorance of science (not meaning that to sound as harsh as it sounds). I guess you could argue for intelligent design because of these laws but that would make all things sacred. To me applying "sacred" to geometry now is either a means to reinforce a theory or a lack of knowledge about the way these laws permeate everything.


...totally. If the first 'science' to be widespread had been Chemistry - and the rules and laws of chemical reaction had been quantified, then it would have been 'sacred chemistry' that gave that all important insight into the mind of the creator. And it would have been GCOTU not GAOTU - as the building blocks would have been atoms and elements rather than blocks of stone.
Personally, I tended towards a 'creation' simply because of the laws and order we see all around, but I lost it a bit when it followed that law and order must exist in an infinite number of universes.

It is this 'all geometry is sacred' bit that people just don't seem to want to take on board. But who am I to argue against it? - the term 'sacred geometry' has been a money spinner for a few people - and 'sacred geometry'/'sacred feminine'/'sacred .....' seems to sell doesn't it (or at least it used to!)?

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 1:43 pm 
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Quote:
It is this 'all geometry is sacred' bit that people just don't seem to want to take on board. But who am I to argue against it? - the term 'sacred geometry' has been a money spinner for a few people - and 'sacred geometry'/'sacred feminine'/'sacred .....' seems to sell doesn't it (or at least it used to!)?



yes and never more so than now in RlC. It's ironic that today HL's way of thinking is considered too mudane to appeal to the new age Magdalena worshippers who get fleeced for 1000s $$ to hear bullshit from a "reincarnation" of the sacred feminine
Jeez the stories I could tell you about that (dyed) red headed criminal...I'm sure you can guess who I mean :evil:


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 2:16 pm 
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Some numbers, formulas, patterns etc are repeated through the structure of nature and the universe...
Does that make them sacred?

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 3:43 pm 
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Barbarian Storm wrote:
Some numbers, formulas, patterns etc are repeated through the structure of nature and the universe...
Does that make them sacred?

BS,
As Lov would say - it's all up to the viewer isn't it? Chemicals repeat, numbers repeat - law repeats. So is everything then not sacred?
Anything can be sacred can't it - as the Temptations used to sing in the seventies - 'Love can be anything, can nothing be love but love' - just replace love with G_d...if your god is in everything, then everything is sacred. IE G_d can be seen in a view, in an apple, a flower, a number, a shape, in humanity, in the smallest atom - but none of them are G_d.
The point I've been trying to get across for ages though is that in olden days, GAOTU was seen as such because the order of number and shape was seen as a facet to the creator. So seeing any order and/or structure is peeking behind the veil. Much like today the grail for science is the Higgs Boson - a glimpse at the creation. Geometry itself was sacred as it showed a link to GAOTU - not just geometry in so called religious buildings.

I just despair at people being being taken in by people appending 'sacred' to things just to add a mystical element to whatever they're talking about.

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 4:25 pm 
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I totally understand where you all are coming from

Geometry Chemistry Astronomy ...to us in the year 2016 are sciences ....not "sacred" to many people. Other people do still hold sacred geometry as important such as Freemasonry uses the compass of the "Great Architect" symbolism to this day ....they kept their teachings for only members. It was a secret organization. But I have noticed more openness of their teachings now to the public.


but we are looking back in history with a Abbe (priest) and a Catholic Church (spiritual religious organization)
wearing vestments to perform a "sacred ritual" to him and his parishioners

In the past the Roman Catholic Church were the teachers and controllers of education and only allowed those deemed worthy taught
I just visited Paris doing research and I visited churches that date back to the 12th century and 13th centuries....the time of Saint Louis and his mother Blanche Castile and Eleanor of Aquitaine.... the time of Saint Louis Bible ....where the creator of the universe used a compass....where the masons had this "sacred knowledge" to build these grand cathedrals. It looks like the monarchies knew about geometry and astronomy as well as other sciences. Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also 8) The Crusades brought with it a mixing of faiths and cultures

and France was in the middle of it

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 4:51 pm 
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Quote:
Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also


if a law is universal then it stands to reason that people from many different places would see that law Geometry, mathmatics etc have fundamental laws that can be seen by anyone with knowledge or very high intelligence. We can see that when intially discovered (probably by many people in many places at many different times) they might seem to be the work of the creator and hence "sacred" but haven't we moved on from that rather simplistic perspective? We either call everything sacred or nothing. You need to be able to show a real difference between what you perceive as "sacred" geometry and the rest of geometry otherwise people might suspect you are throwing the word "sacred" around just for effect


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 6:29 pm 
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Davinho wrote:
Quote:
Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also


if a law is universal then it stands to reason that people from many different places would see that law Geometry, mathmatics etc have fundamental laws that can be seen by anyone with knowledge or very high intelligence. We can see that when intially discovered (probably by many people in many places at many different times) they might seem to be the work of the creator and hence "sacred" but haven't we moved on from that rather simplistic perspective? We either call everything sacred or nothing. You need to be able to show a real difference between what you perceive as "sacred" geometry and the rest of geometry otherwise people might suspect you are throwing the word "sacred" around just for effect


Well Davinho explain to me why there is a Golden Triangle with the Hebrew word for the Tetrgrammaton on Sauniere's vestments and why he didn't consider the symbol sacred? I'm all ears :?: How do you explain it without using the word "sacred" since we are talking about a priest, a church ...spiritual religion and a place considered a sacred place of worship?....or is it just a building or a man wearing a weird outfit ....It's the viewer...they choose ...an atheist sees nothing...a Jewish person would see the sacred word of the Tetragrammaton and what did Abbe Sauniere see

I understand your view that using the word "sacred" is sensationalism but I'm pointing out that the Creator in Saint Louis Bible is using a compass symbol for geometry in his Bible.....Saint Louis considered Sacred Geometry (Mathematics) sacred since it's in his Bible and that Abbe Sauniere also thought the Golden triangle with the Tetragrammaton sacred since he wore it on his vestments at Mass. I wish I could take the word "sacred" out but Sauniere and Saint Louis as well as others consider mathematics (Geometry) sacred knowledge ....Oh and by the way Queen Blanche Castile (a woman) hand picked the theologians to make Saint Louis Bible...she had her own view and wanted that handed down to her son....a feminine view....and many times Wisdom was seen as a Woman in the Bible teaching the monks mathematics.

and this is for BS and Rain ....if you look at the golden background of the illuminations in the Saint Louis Bible ...you will see golden squares all interconnected with four dots in the square
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ ... -of-france

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 6:33 pm 
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lovuian wrote:
I totally understand where you all are coming from

Geometry Chemistry Astronomy ...to us in the year 2016 are sciences ....not "sacred" to many people. Other people do still hold sacred geometry as important such as Freemasonry uses the compass of the "Great Architect" symbolism to this day ....they kept their teachings for only members. It was a secret organization. But I have noticed more openness of their teachings now to the public.


but we are looking back in history with a Abbe (priest) and a Catholic Church (spiritual religious organization)
wearing vestments to perform a "sacred ritual" to him and his parishioners

In the past the Roman Catholic Church were the teachers and controllers of education and only allowed those deemed worthy taught
I just visited Paris doing research and I visited churches that date back to the 12th century and 13th centuries....the time of Saint Louis and his mother Blanche Castile and Eleanor of Aquitaine.... the time of Saint Louis Bible ....where the creator of the universe used a compass....where the masons had this "sacred knowledge" to build these grand cathedrals. It looks like the monarchies knew about geometry and astronomy as well as other sciences. Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also 8) The Crusades brought with it a mixing of faiths and cultures

and France was in the middle of it


We keep going round this. I think you keep missing the point - you say you understand, then just trot out the same stuff. Masonry has the GAOTU - as I tried to explain, that is not because of 'sacred geometry' BUT because ALL geometry was seen as a visible 'clue' of the creator, the architect. So ALL geometry is sacred per se. Geometry is what points to the Architect - is a facet of the face of G_d, not geometry in a particular type of building or location. ALL geometry points to there being a creator. As does all Chemistry, all Physics, all Astromony - as they are all sciences and all those sciences simply catalogue the laws and rules. AND ALL the laws and rules then indicate order and creation. Do you now follow?

I also think, unless I'm wrong that all Masons are told as part of the 1st degree to investigate science. You can see why surely?

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2016 6:49 pm 
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jlockest wrote:
lovuian wrote:
I totally understand where you all are coming from

Geometry Chemistry Astronomy ...to us in the year 2016 are sciences ....not "sacred" to many people. Other people do still hold sacred geometry as important such as Freemasonry uses the compass of the "Great Architect" symbolism to this day ....they kept their teachings for only members. It was a secret organization. But I have noticed more openness of their teachings now to the public.


but we are looking back in history with a Abbe (priest) and a Catholic Church (spiritual religious organization)
wearing vestments to perform a "sacred ritual" to him and his parishioners

In the past the Roman Catholic Church were the teachers and controllers of education and only allowed those deemed worthy taught
I just visited Paris doing research and I visited churches that date back to the 12th century and 13th centuries....the time of Saint Louis and his mother Blanche Castile and Eleanor of Aquitaine.... the time of Saint Louis Bible ....where the creator of the universe used a compass....where the masons had this "sacred knowledge" to build these grand cathedrals. It looks like the monarchies knew about geometry and astronomy as well as other sciences. Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also 8) The Crusades brought with it a mixing of faiths and cultures

and France was in the middle of it


We keep going round this. I think you keep missing the point - you say you understand, then just trot out the same stuff. Masonry has the GAOTU - as I tried to explain, that is not because of 'sacred geometry' BUT because ALL geometry was seen as a visible 'clue' of the creator, the architect. So ALL geometry is sacred per se. Geometry is what points to the Architect - is a facet of the face of G_d, not geometry in a particular type of building or location. ALL geometry points to there being a creator. As does all Chemistry, all Physics, all Astromony - as they are all sciences and all those sciences simply catalogue the laws and rules. AND ALL the laws and rules then indicate order and creation. Do you now follow?

I also think, unless I'm wrong that all Masons are told as part of the 1st degree to investigate science. You can see why surely?


Yes I can and I think you said it well....Einstein felt the Higher Order and wanted to understand it....and that is why we here the word "Great" Geometrician or Great Architect....because the Universe and laws are so vast and mysterious of which man still explores using science

so replace "Sacred" with "Great"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Arc ... e_Universe

The concept of God as the (Great) Architect of the Universe has been employed many times in Christianity. An illustration of God as the architect of the universe can be found in a Bible from the Middle Ages[1] and the comparison of God to an architect has been used by Christian apologists and teachers.

Saint Thomas Aquinas said in the Summa: "God, Who is the first principle of all things, may be compared to things created as the architect is to things designed (ut artifex ad artificiata)."[2] Commentators have pointed out that the assertion that the Grand Architect of the Universe is the Christian God "is not evident on the basis of 'natural theology' alone but requires an additional 'leap of faith' based on the revelation of the Bible".[3]

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (1536), repeatedly calls the Christian God "the Architect of the Universe", also referring to his works as "Architecture of the Universe", and in his commentary on Psalm 19 refers to the Christian God as the "Great Architect" or "Architect of the Universe".


Masonic historians such as William Bissey,[4] Gary Leazer (quoting Coil's Masonic Encyclopaedia),[5] and S. Brent Morris,[6] assert that "the Masonic abbreviation G.A.O.T.U., meaning the Great Architect of the Universe, continues a long tradition of using an allegorical name for the Deity." They trace how the name and the abbreviation entered Masonic tradition from the Book of Constitutions written in 1723 by the Reverend James Anderson. They also note that Anderson, a Calvinist minister, probably took the term from Calvin's usage.

Christopher Haffner's own explanation of how the Masonic concept of a Great Architect of the Universe, as a placeholder for the Supreme Being of one's choice, is given in Workman Unashamed:

“ Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as the Holy Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed as Allah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived as Vishnu. Since I believe that there is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities: They are praying to the devil whilst I am praying to God;They are praying to nothing, as their Gods do not exist;They are praying to the same God as I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine — 1 Cor 13:12)
It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility..

— Christopher Haffner, Workman Unashamed: The Testimony of a Christian Freemason, Lewis Masonic, 1989, p.39

The Swedish Rite, which has the prerequisite of professing to Christian Faith, uses the form "The Threefold Great Architect of the Universe".


Yes I get it for all of you I'll use the "Great Geometrician" instead of "sacred geometry" so are we all satisfied now

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2016 6:12 am 
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lovuian wrote:
Davinho wrote:
Quote:
Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also


if a law is universal then it stands to reason that people from many different places would see that law Geometry, mathmatics etc have fundamental laws that can be seen by anyone with knowledge or very high intelligence. We can see that when intially discovered (probably by many people in many places at many different times) they might seem to be the work of the creator and hence "sacred" but haven't we moved on from that rather simplistic perspective? We either call everything sacred or nothing. You need to be able to show a real difference between what you perceive as "sacred" geometry and the rest of geometry otherwise people might suspect you are throwing the word "sacred" around just for effect


Well Davinho explain to me why there is a Golden Triangle with the Hebrew word for the Tetrgrammaton on Sauniere's vestments and why he didn't consider the symbol sacred? I'm all ears :?: How do you explain it without using the word "sacred" since we are talking about a priest, a church ...spiritual religion and a place considered a sacred place of worship?....or is it just a building or a man wearing a weird outfit ....It's the viewer...they choose ...an atheist sees nothing...a Jewish person would see the sacred word of the Tetragrammaton and what did Abbe Sauniere see

I understand your view that using the word "sacred" is sensationalism but I'm pointing out that the Creator in Saint Louis Bible is using a compass symbol for geometry in his Bible.....Saint Louis considered Sacred Geometry (Mathematics) sacred since it's in his Bible and that Abbe Sauniere also thought the Golden triangle with the Tetragrammaton sacred since he wore it on his vestments at Mass. I wish I could take the word "sacred" out but Sauniere and Saint Louis as well as others consider mathematics (Geometry) sacred knowledge ....Oh and by the way Queen Blanche Castile (a woman) hand picked the theologians to make Saint Louis Bible...she had her own view and wanted that handed down to her son....a feminine view....and many times Wisdom was seen as a Woman in the Bible teaching the monks mathematics.

and this is for BS and Rain ....if you look at the golden background of the illuminations in the Saint Louis Bible ...you will see golden squares all interconnected with four dots in the square
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ ... -of-france


But don't you have to show what meaning it had for Sauniere? Isn't this akin to the redecoration of the church? People think the decorations are odd, but the statues and decorations were largely ordered via a catalogue - so were commonly available for use in redecorating all churches. Surely Sauniere's vestments were bought through a church supplier and not specifically designed by Sauniere himself?

Refer https://estherhecht.wordpress.com/2010/ ... -triangle/ - quote - when talking about the same symbol carved into a church:

'...But when Fierman sought an explanation from church officials, he received the following response from Fray Angelico Chavez, who had compiled a catalogue of the archives of the archdiocese between 1678 and 1900: “It is to be noted that the Tetragrammaton is enclosed in a triangle. In Europe, this was a common Christian symbol, denoting the One god of Moses and Abraham revealed in their New Covenant, as Three Divine Persons in one God . . . hence the Graeco-Latin term ‘Trinity.’ The symbol was carved in the Gothic and Romanesque churches of northern Europe, painted on sacred furnishings, embroidered in liturgical vestments. (I found one Chasuble or Mass vestment, imported from France by Lamy or his successor, with this same emblem embroidered with gold thread on the back of the most prominent part.)"......'

So the symbol is not uncommon in a Christian setting it seems. Fine. But how do you know what importance Sauniere gave it?

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2016 6:16 am 
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lovuian wrote:
jlockest wrote:
lovuian wrote:
I totally understand where you all are coming from

Geometry Chemistry Astronomy ...to us in the year 2016 are sciences ....not "sacred" to many people. Other people do still hold sacred geometry as important such as Freemasonry uses the compass of the "Great Architect" symbolism to this day ....they kept their teachings for only members. It was a secret organization. But I have noticed more openness of their teachings now to the public.


but we are looking back in history with a Abbe (priest) and a Catholic Church (spiritual religious organization)
wearing vestments to perform a "sacred ritual" to him and his parishioners

In the past the Roman Catholic Church were the teachers and controllers of education and only allowed those deemed worthy taught
I just visited Paris doing research and I visited churches that date back to the 12th century and 13th centuries....the time of Saint Louis and his mother Blanche Castile and Eleanor of Aquitaine.... the time of Saint Louis Bible ....where the creator of the universe used a compass....where the masons had this "sacred knowledge" to build these grand cathedrals. It looks like the monarchies knew about geometry and astronomy as well as other sciences. Their were other religions who the monarchies came in contact who revered "sacred geometry" also 8) The Crusades brought with it a mixing of faiths and cultures

and France was in the middle of it


We keep going round this. I think you keep missing the point - you say you understand, then just trot out the same stuff. Masonry has the GAOTU - as I tried to explain, that is not because of 'sacred geometry' BUT because ALL geometry was seen as a visible 'clue' of the creator, the architect. So ALL geometry is sacred per se. Geometry is what points to the Architect - is a facet of the face of G_d, not geometry in a particular type of building or location. ALL geometry points to there being a creator. As does all Chemistry, all Physics, all Astromony - as they are all sciences and all those sciences simply catalogue the laws and rules. AND ALL the laws and rules then indicate order and creation. Do you now follow?

I also think, unless I'm wrong that all Masons are told as part of the 1st degree to investigate science. You can see why surely?


Yes I can and I think you said it well....Einstein felt the Higher Order and wanted to understand it....and that is why we here the word "Great" Geometrician or Great Architect....because the Universe and laws are so vast and mysterious of which man still explores using science

so replace "Sacred" with "Great"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Arc ... e_Universe

The concept of God as the (Great) Architect of the Universe has been employed many times in Christianity. An illustration of God as the architect of the universe can be found in a Bible from the Middle Ages[1] and the comparison of God to an architect has been used by Christian apologists and teachers.

Saint Thomas Aquinas said in the Summa: "God, Who is the first principle of all things, may be compared to things created as the architect is to things designed (ut artifex ad artificiata)."[2] Commentators have pointed out that the assertion that the Grand Architect of the Universe is the Christian God "is not evident on the basis of 'natural theology' alone but requires an additional 'leap of faith' based on the revelation of the Bible".[3]

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (1536), repeatedly calls the Christian God "the Architect of the Universe", also referring to his works as "Architecture of the Universe", and in his commentary on Psalm 19 refers to the Christian God as the "Great Architect" or "Architect of the Universe".


Masonic historians such as William Bissey,[4] Gary Leazer (quoting Coil's Masonic Encyclopaedia),[5] and S. Brent Morris,[6] assert that "the Masonic abbreviation G.A.O.T.U., meaning the Great Architect of the Universe, continues a long tradition of using an allegorical name for the Deity." They trace how the name and the abbreviation entered Masonic tradition from the Book of Constitutions written in 1723 by the Reverend James Anderson. They also note that Anderson, a Calvinist minister, probably took the term from Calvin's usage.

Christopher Haffner's own explanation of how the Masonic concept of a Great Architect of the Universe, as a placeholder for the Supreme Being of one's choice, is given in Workman Unashamed:

“ Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as the Holy Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed as Allah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived as Vishnu. Since I believe that there is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities: They are praying to the devil whilst I am praying to God;They are praying to nothing, as their Gods do not exist;They are praying to the same God as I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine — 1 Cor 13:12)
It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility..

— Christopher Haffner, Workman Unashamed: The Testimony of a Christian Freemason, Lewis Masonic, 1989, p.39

The Swedish Rite, which has the prerequisite of professing to Christian Faith, uses the form "The Threefold Great Architect of the Universe".


Yes I get it for all of you I'll use the "Great Geometrician" instead of "sacred geometry" so are we all satisfied now


You still don't seem to get it going by that last line.
I'm also not sure why you've introduced the Masonic concept of a Supreme Being while trying to explain why only certain geometry is sacred.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2016 7:39 am 
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lovuian quotes Haffner on his "possibilities":

Quote:
Christopher Haffner's own explanation of how the Masonic concept of a Great Architect of the Universe, as a placeholder for the Supreme Being of one's choice, is given in Workman Unashamed:

“ Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as the Holy Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed as Allah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived as Vishnu. Since I believe that there is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities: They are praying to the devil whilst I am praying to God;They are praying to nothing, as their Gods do not exist;They are praying to the same God as I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine — 1 Cor 13:12)
It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility..

— Christopher Haffner, Workman Unashamed: The Testimony of a Christian Freemason, Lewis Masonic, 1989, p.39

Haffner's arrogance is palpable is it not? If it's not arrogance, then it's surely intellectual dishonesty.

Only three possibilities?

He needs to remove the mots from his eyes and start to think a little more clearly about the range of possibilities.

Perhaps he's praying to the Devil. Perhaps he is praying to nothing, an so on.


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2016 9:20 am 
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Quote:
Well Davinho explain to me why there is a Golden Triangle with the Hebrew word for the Tetrgrammaton on Sauniere's vestments and why he didn't consider the symbol sacred?


why does the Pope wear a funny hat? I'm sure there's symbology there somewhere but does the Pope know what it might have originally meant? Did Sauniere know what he was wearing symbolised? Did it match what you think? You can ask me the question above but first you need to show that Sauniere believed that it meant something and what that something was


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2016 10:36 am 
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jlockest wrote:
Barbarian Storm wrote:
Some numbers, formulas, patterns etc are repeated through the structure of nature and the universe...
Does that make them sacred?

BS,
As Lov would say - it's all up to the viewer isn't it? Chemicals repeat, numbers repeat - law repeats. So is everything then not sacred?
Anything can be sacred can't it - as the Temptations used to sing in the seventies - 'Love can be anything, can nothing be love but love' - just replace love with G_d...if your god is in everything, then everything is sacred. IE G_d can be seen in a view, in an apple, a flower, a number, a shape, in humanity, in the smallest atom - but none of them are G_d.
The point I've been trying to get across for ages though is that in olden days, GAOTU was seen as such because the order of number and shape was seen as a facet to the creator. So seeing any order and/or structure is peeking behind the veil. Much like today the grail for science is the Higgs Boson - a glimpse at the creation. Geometry itself was sacred as it showed a link to GAOTU - not just geometry in so called religious buildings.

I just despair at people being being taken in by people appending 'sacred' to things just to add a mystical element to whatever they're talking about.


I'm completely with you!

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2016 7:43 pm 
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Davinho wrote:
Quote:
Well Davinho explain to me why there is a Golden Triangle with the Hebrew word for the Tetrgrammaton on Sauniere's vestments and why he didn't consider the symbol sacred?


why does the Pope wear a funny hat? I'm sure there's symbology there somewhere but does the Pope know what it might have originally meant? Did Sauniere know what he was wearing symbolised? Did it match what you think? You can ask me the question above but first you need to show that Sauniere believed that it meant something and what that something was

I understand now why you don't understand the significance of a priests vestments or why does the Pope wear a silly hat...does the Pope really believe in what he is wearing....Sauniere took a sacred oath to be a priest before the Bishop and was taught the significance and symbolism of each piece of clothing he wore as a priest in conducting a sacred spiritual mass .....In Sauniere's training as a priest this were lessons he was probably taught in the seminary

He built(renovated) a church

Vestments are sacramental

In all, the vestments used at Mass have a two-fold purpose: “These should therefore symbolize the function of each ministry. But at the same time the vestments should also contributed to the beauty of the rite” (General Instruction on the Roman Missal, #335). Moreover, the vestments inspire the priest and all of the faithful to meditate on their rich symbolism.........Sauniere by wearing this chose for the faithful to meditate on the symbolism of the Golden triangle with the Tetragrammaton....he could have picked any other of symbols to wear but he chose this one

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PostPosted: 20 Aug 2016 6:10 am 
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lovuian wrote:
Davinho wrote:
Quote:
Well Davinho explain to me why there is a Golden Triangle with the Hebrew word for the Tetrgrammaton on Sauniere's vestments and why he didn't consider the symbol sacred?


why does the Pope wear a funny hat? I'm sure there's symbology there somewhere but does the Pope know what it might have originally meant? Did Sauniere know what he was wearing symbolised? Did it match what you think? You can ask me the question above but first you need to show that Sauniere believed that it meant something and what that something was

I understand now why you don't understand the significance of a priests vestments or why does the Pope wear a silly hat...does the Pope really believe in what he is wearing....Sauniere took a sacred oath to be a priest before the Bishop and was taught the significance and symbolism of each piece of clothing he wore as a priest in conducting a sacred spiritual mass .....In Sauniere's training as a priest this were lessons he was probably taught in the seminary

He built(renovated) a church

Vestments are sacramental

In all, the vestments used at Mass have a two-fold purpose: “These should therefore symbolize the function of each ministry. But at the same time the vestments should also contributed to the beauty of the rite” (General Instruction on the Roman Missal, #335). Moreover, the vestments inspire the priest and all of the faithful to meditate on their rich symbolism.........Sauniere by wearing this chose for the faithful to meditate on the symbolism of the Golden triangle with the Tetragrammaton....he could have picked any other of symbols to wear but he chose this one



But didn't the link I posted above show the symbolism of the golden triangle etc? And it was nothing to do with 'sacred' geometry? Isn't it more likely to be a representation of the Trinity - and with the 'name' of G_d in the middle - isn't that then simply showing that each element of the Trinity is in itself not independent but again just a facet of the one G_d?

On top of that Lov - the article also implies that it was a common feature on Churches and vestments - so why is it special in Sauniere's case? And unless you can show that Sauniere had his vestments made to his design, then that symbol was being worn by a whole variety of priests (and built into their churches) - all buying from the same suppliers. Nothing special.

That was from a simple google search on triangle and Tetragrammaton - another http://mrssymbols.blogspot.co.uk/2013/1 ... etail.html

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PostPosted: 21 Aug 2016 10:02 pm 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragram ... Yahweh.jpg

The large round glass window high above the main altar with the Hebrew Tetragrammaton/Yahweh symbolizes God's omnipotence and simultaneously, through its warm yellow tone, God's love

Karlskirche (St. Charles's Church) is a baroque church located on the south side of Karlsplatz in Vienna, Austria
The church is cared for by a religious order, the Knights of the Cross with the Red Star,
The Order, as a distinct entity, can trace its origin to 1233 in a fraternity of Franciscan tertiaries attached to a hospital at Prague under a community of Poor Clares, established by St. Agnes of Bohemia, making it the only male religious Order founded by a woman and the only Bohemian-founded Order. It was inspired by the nursing military Orders, such as the Knights Hospitaller.[2] In 1235 the hospital was richly endowed by Agnes, then still Queen of Bohemia, with property formerly belonging to the Teutonic Knights, a gift confirmed by Pope Gregory IX (18 May 1236), who stipulated that the revenues should be divided with the Poor Clare monastery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_o ... e_Red_Star

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PostPosted: 21 Aug 2016 10:37 pm 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoration ... H_Goya.jpg

Francisco de Goya y Lucientes. "The name of God" (Tetragrammaton in triangle), fresco detail from LA GLORIA or LA ADORACIÓN DEL NOMBRE DE DIOS (1772). Basílica del Pilar, Zaragoza (Spain).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoration ... ngeles.jpg
created
31 December 1771
Against a background of clouds groups of angels contemplate the name of God, inscribed on an equilateral triangle
To either side are arranged groups of angels directing the attention to the central scene, dominated by the symbol of the Christianity Trinity and Godhead: an equilateral triangle inscribed with the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew. Because the various groups are situated at different altitudes, the final impression is rather static, dominated by a composition in the shape of an "X", the result of Goya's intention to have the lines of force coming in from the corners and crossing in the centre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoration ... ame_of_God

The Cathedral-Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar (Spanish: Catedral-Basílica de Nuestra Señora del Pilar) is a Roman Catholic church in the city of Zaragoza, Aragon, Spain. The Basilica venerates Blessed Virgin Mary, under her title Our Lady of the Pillar[1] praised as Mother of the Hispanic Peoples by Pope John Paul II.[2] It is reputed to be the first church dedicated to Mary in history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral ... the_Pillar

The architecture is of Baroque style, and the present building was predominantly built between 1681 and 1872.
During the Spanish Civil War of 1936–1939 three bombs were dropped on the church but none of them exploded.[3] Two of them are still on show in the Basilica.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral ... ragoza.jpg

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