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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2015 8:21 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Sheila is right [as she very often is :mrgreen: ]

From wiki:

Thorn or þorn (Þ, þ) is a letter in the Old English, Gothic, Old Norse and modern Icelandic alphabets, as well as some dialects of Middle English. It was also used in medieval Scandinavia, but was later replaced with the digraph th, except in Iceland where it survives. The letter originated from the rune p in the Elder Fuþark and was called thorn in the Anglo-Saxon and thorn or thurs (a category of beings in Germanic Paganism) in the Scandinavian rune poems. Its reconstructed Proto-Germanic name is Thurisaz.

Makes sense with the ancestry of the Goths.


No and if you're reading Visigoth script you'd be reading Latin. That's from outsiders translating the words such as Wolfram, Tolkien, and some game translating into what they would perceive as Goths describing themselves but it ignores the relationship of an unlettered people using roman protocols.

The following is a definition of Visigothic script which by it's nature distinguishes it from being a different spoken language.
there is also questions as to it's evolution being that it has markers that suggest it may also include a change in it's pronunciation but I'm not a linguistics expert so I'll leave that alone.

Quote:
Visigothic script was the graphic form the Latin alphabet acquired for most common writing uses in the Iberian Peninsula and Septimania in the Middle Ages. Thus, it was used, between around the 8th and 13th centuries –this chronology depends on the regional variant– , in the territories that once formed the ancient Visigothic kingdom. It was not originated suddenly during it [I don’t like the term ‘originated’ at all]. During the 5th to 8th centuries, the features that will be distinctive in Visigothic script were developed gradually in a natural evolution that can be seen by analyzing the graphic forms of the so-called ‘new Roman cursive’ writing –common graphic point for all continental national writing systems– preserved in slate tablets and graffiti. Therefore, while the script was being developed and its main distinctive features were taking shape, the ‘visigoths’ were there but they did not see the script in its ‘final’ form, the one that we call now Visigothic script.


as for the S it's a finishing invocation of Christ's name it's the "us" in Christus.

http://www.academia.edu/2606315/_The_Ch ... mentation_

Quote:
1) The first one, on the left, is similar to the traditional Chi-Rho, preserving the P, which extends vertically along multiple lines of text and forms the body of the sign, with the X in the center, and adds an S departing from the base of the P, representing the final - us of Christus.

2) The second, on the right, is cursive, in which the P loses part of its nature, the X changes into a G-clef sign representing the final -us, and the S evolves into a new line departing from the base of the P, sometimes invading the writing box, and losing its meaning.



IHS

Quote:
This is a monogram of the name of Jesus Christ. From the 3rd century the names of Christ were sometimes shortened, particularly in Christian inscriptions (IH and XP, for Jesus and Christus). In the 4th century the "sigla" (chi-rho) occurs not only as an abbreviation but also as a symbol. From the beginning, however, in Christian inscriptions the names of Jesus Christ, were shortened by contraction, thus IC and XC or IHS and XPS for Iesous Christos. These Greek monograms continued to be used in Latin during the Middle Ages.
IHS is the Christogram for the Greek spelling of Jesus (ΙΗΣ- iota-eta-sigma; short for ΙΗΣΟΥΣ)

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2015 11:38 am 
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Sheila wrote It's not a P per se , but a Þ(thorn) & hotspur wrote Do you have an image of what you have in consideration.

Image

Spanish Chi-Rho (charters)

Apparently the S is "corresponding with the usual greco-latin abbreviation XPS in nomina sacra". [Christ/Messiah ριστός]
The ς that was added around the 10th century is the last letter of the greek word Χριστός.

When the Carolingian script arrived, the Chi-Rho also changed. In the first ten examples written in this supranational script, cursive designs of the Christogram can still be found, but in the ones immediately following it is like the sign was turned back to its origins. Why?

Image


As i am still open to the idea that an archaeological artifact represented by the Chi Rho existed - and that both these groups [Visigoths and Carolingians] may have had this artifact i just wondered why the P & S were added in their lifetimes - sometimes in places of the alpha and omega - and then certainly in much later church designs .....

For example ...

Image

5th century tomb from Syrian/Lebanon

Image

Crismon of San Pedro the old.

Image

Crismon Cathedral of Jaca

Does the added P and S of the so called chi rho mean the same to the Visigoths/Carolingians as it did to later churches/ figures ?

Image

Image

Image

Its all probably something and nothing and only to be understood in the context of the time and place i guess.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2015 11:54 am 
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Rain said: This is a monogram of the name of Jesus Christ. From the 3rd century the names of Christ were sometimes shortened, particularly in Christian inscriptions (IH and XP, for Jesus and Christus). In the 4th century the "sigla" (chi-rho) occurs not only as an abbreviation but also as a symbol. From the beginning, however, in Christian inscriptions the names of Jesus Christ, were shortened by contraction, thus IC and XC or IHS and XPS for Iesous Christos. These Greek monograms continued to be used in Latin during the Middle Ages.
IHS is the Christogram for the Greek spelling of Jesus (ΙΗΣ- iota-eta-sigma; short for ΙΗΣΟΥΣ)


But this is my whole point.

The CHI RHO is 'suppose to be' a cross seen by Constantine at the Battle of Milvian Bridge. Constantine did not SEE the monogram of Christ.

In a work [by Jean Pierre Deloux] these sort of themes are taken up by Chérisey and contain information that Deloux would have received directly from Plantard and Chérisey. In relation to the important word PAX [again] i quote the following:

"[the] P [of the word PAX] located the successor of Peter on the axis of the solstices of the Capricorn and Cancer, and the branches of the X indicated the four horizons which are Aquarius, Taurus the Bull, Leo the Lion and Scorpio the Scorpion putting the sky back on the shoulders of the emperor..... At the time of the first contentions between the divine and the Caesarean vision the successors of Peter made the point that the possession of the solstices involving the control of the entire sky and that it was necessary to decipher in X the crossing of the apostolic keys entrusted by Jesus to the first Apostle. The imperialists recalled to the pope that the domination of the solstices and the emblem of the two keys did not come to him only from Jesus but from the pagan Janus by permission of the emperor.....That if Jesus had given to Peter a capacity on the door of the hell Peter himself had confirmed it while asking to be crucified head down. From where one was to deduce that a silver key reaching the hell was property of Peter in the axis of Leo-Aquarius.

These academic discussions covered an extremely clear morality where the emperor governing the world of the living offered the kingdom of the dead to his pontifical associate. Although this division can be very flattering for the papacy in a harmonious universe, one well also sees as it risked submitting completely the authority of the pope to the emperor, the mystical to the political. It is one thing to propose eternal life to those who pass the doors of hell. It is another to reign on the grants in perpetuity granted by the benevolent Caesar. Here was born undoubtedly the reluctance from the Church concerning beatification of the emperor Constantine, his increasing mistrust with respect to the astrologer and the needs where it was to acquire a political power to escape the political.

A decision of 692 at the council of Byzantium was to supplant the chrism by the emblem of the Greek cross. The sign of Constantine entered for some time into no man's land where it was not asserted any more. Then an agreement between the two parties reintroduced the chrism of the Roman Pax in the pontifical arms provided that it becomes Greek A ☧ Ω whose directions is APXΩ 'I command'. In this manner, the emperor of the East reserved the right at every moment to assert the emblem of the pope of the West. Secretly the victory returned to Janus under the auspices of Saint John who, by his proposition: 'I am the alpha and the Omega', had dictated the new emblem
."

http://www.rhedesium.com/the-sign-of-ch ... ntine.html

Re-reading it again i am intrigued by Cherisey's comment 'At the time of the first contentions between the divine and the Caesarean vision the successors of Peter made the point that the possession of the solstices involving the control of the entire sky and that it was necessary to decipher in X the crossing of the apostolic keys entrusted by Jesus to the first Apostle".

What Caesarean vision?

Any thoughts anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2015 7:46 pm 
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Quote:
What Caesarean vision?


This pertains to Cornelius/Corneille, the centurion stationed at Caesarea who received a vision and was converted.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2015 12:19 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Rain said: This is a monogram of the name of Jesus Christ. From the 3rd century the names of Christ were sometimes shortened, particularly in Christian inscriptions (IH and XP, for Jesus and Christus). In the 4th century the "sigla" (chi-rho) occurs not only as an abbreviation but also as a symbol. From the beginning, however, in Christian inscriptions the names of Jesus Christ, were shortened by contraction, thus IC and XC or IHS and XPS for Iesous Christos. These Greek monograms continued to be used in Latin during the Middle Ages.
IHS is the Christogram for the Greek spelling of Jesus (ΙΗΣ- iota-eta-sigma; short for ΙΗΣΟΥΣ)


But this is my whole point.

The CHI RHO is 'suppose to be' a cross seen by Constantine at the Battle of Milvian Bridge. Constantine did not SEE the monogram of Christ.

In a work [by Jean Pierre Deloux] these sort of themes are taken up by Chérisey and contain information that Deloux would have received directly from Plantard and Chérisey. In relation to the important word PAX [again] i quote the following:

"[the] P [of the word PAX] located the successor of Peter on the axis of the solstices of the Capricorn and Cancer, and the branches of the X indicated the four horizons which are Aquarius, Taurus the Bull, Leo the Lion and Scorpio the Scorpion putting the sky back on the shoulders of the emperor..... At the time of the first contentions between the divine and the Caesarean vision the successors of Peter made the point that the possession of the solstices involving the control of the entire sky and that it was necessary to decipher in X the crossing of the apostolic keys entrusted by Jesus to the first Apostle. The imperialists recalled to the pope that the domination of the solstices and the emblem of the two keys did not come to him only from Jesus but from the pagan Janus by permission of the emperor.....That if Jesus had given to Peter a capacity on the door of the hell Peter himself had confirmed it while asking to be crucified head down. From where one was to deduce that a silver key reaching the hell was property of Peter in the axis of Leo-Aquarius.

These academic discussions covered an extremely clear morality where the emperor governing the world of the living offered the kingdom of the dead to his pontifical associate. Although this division can be very flattering for the papacy in a harmonious universe, one well also sees as it risked submitting completely the authority of the pope to the emperor, the mystical to the political. It is one thing to propose eternal life to those who pass the doors of hell. It is another to reign on the grants in perpetuity granted by the benevolent Caesar. Here was born undoubtedly the reluctance from the Church concerning beatification of the emperor Constantine, his increasing mistrust with respect to the astrologer and the needs where it was to acquire a political power to escape the political.

A decision of 692 at the council of Byzantium was to supplant the chrism by the emblem of the Greek cross. The sign of Constantine entered for some time into no man's land where it was not asserted any more. Then an agreement between the two parties reintroduced the chrism of the Roman Pax in the pontifical arms provided that it becomes Greek A ☧ Ω whose directions is APXΩ 'I command'. In this manner, the emperor of the East reserved the right at every moment to assert the emblem of the pope of the West. Secretly the victory returned to Janus under the auspices of Saint John who, by his proposition: 'I am the alpha and the Omega', had dictated the new emblem
."

http://www.rhedesium.com/the-sign-of-ch ... ntine.html

Re-reading it again i am intrigued by Cherisey's comment 'At the time of the first contentions between the divine and the Caesarean vision the successors of Peter made the point that the possession of the solstices involving the control of the entire sky and that it was necessary to decipher in X the crossing of the apostolic keys entrusted by Jesus to the first Apostle".

What Caesarean vision?

Any thoughts anyone?


Most events historical events are apocryphal. What we see many times over are parables, myths and legends skewed to reveal a different story if we chose to look at the detail. The definition of Constantine's chrism is considered the classical XP design. It wasn't meant to show a historical truth - it's just an identification of the classic Chi-Rho form which you, yourself identified above when you ask why it reverts to it's classical style, that style is referred to as The Constantinian "Classic style" monogram.

bergeredearcadie wrote:
When the Carolingian script arrived, the Chi-Rho also changed. In the first ten examples written in this supranational script, cursive designs of the Christogram can still be found, but in the ones immediately following it is like the sign was turned back to its origins. Why?

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2015 12:42 am 
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Quote:
bergeredearcadie wrote:
Sheila wrote It's not a P per se , but a Þ(thorn) & hotspur wrote Do you have an image of what you have in consideration.

Image



The P here is not identified as being a Þ(thorn).

It's based on the place, such as a scriptorium and the scribe. So it's basically a stylisation that identifies who and where the document originated not a change in the alphabet.

Here's the article that uses that photo and nowhere does the author identify it as a Þ(thorn).

http://litteravisigothica.com/the-medie ... ern-spain/


Here is part of an article in which the "P" is discussed as a localised monogram and the extension is considered a byproduct from whence the script derives.


http://www.academia.edu/2606315/_The_Ch ... mentation_

The Chi Rho a new method to contextualize medieval documentation

Quote:
[PP] With the aim of answering these questions and determining whether this sign can be considered a means of putting manuscripts without dates and place names into context, [PP] I decided to analyze its design [PP] within the same corpus I used for my PhD: 120 charters in Visigothic script from Lugo diocese (Galicia). The first step was to divide these diplomas by production center based both on the textual content and quality of the scribe’s writing. I thus isolated three main centers: the Cathedral of Lugo, the Monastery of Samos, and a third group comprising parish examples, namely those diplomas in which the scribe showed less dexterity. I then divided these groups into periods of 50 years to study the evolution of the Christogram from the beginning of the 10th c. to the end of the 12th.


[PP] Based on this classification, I started to analyze the signs, or lack of them, in each document, differentiating between three types depending on their position within the document: [PP] initial Chrismons, [PP] signature box Chrismons used individually, or [PP] used to refer to a group of witnesses. [PP] I also analyzed their form, dividing the sign into three zones: top, middle, and bottom. [PP] [PP] Given the time available, I cannot detail the whole process here step-by-step, so I am just going to present the main results. [PP] As a result of this comprehensive analysis, I could distinguish the following types of Christogram: a) In an initial position or in the signature box, not as collective reference:

1.[PP] NEW ASTUR-LEONESE: In the top, this type shows a – more or less – developed spiral evolution of the eye of the letter P.

2.[PP] NEW ASTUR-LEONESE “CLOSED”: The eye of the P is now closed, forming a circle, and the top leans to the right. At the bottom, the stroke representing the S goes up a little, retracing the vertical stroke before curving to the right.

3.[PP] NEW ASTUR-LEONESE “SIMPLE”: The stroke representing the S is straight and follows the vertical stroke up to the middle of the sign before turning to the right.

4.[PP] NEW ASTUR-LEONESE “DOUBLE”: The final stroke of the G-clef extends to the right, crossing the vertical stroke of the P parallel to the evolution of the S.

5.[PP] MEDIEVAL INTERPRETATION OF THE CONSTANTINIAN CHI-RHO. b) In the signature box: to be used for a group [PP] with a G-clef sign for each witness, named Christogram “in column”.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2015 1:48 am 
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Sheila wrote:
Quote:
What Caesarean vision?


This pertains to Cornelius/Corneille, the centurion stationed at Caesarea who received a vision and was converted.


Notice Cornelius crosses himself. I wonder about the sheet divided into four - it's not considered a vision but the angel is?

Vision of Cornelius the Centurion

A dramatic play of light and shadow can add an emotional charge to the depiction of an event. This was the great lesson that Eeckhout absorbed from his teacher Rembrandt van Rijn in the late 1630s and was still using in 1664, when he signed and dated this painting. This is especially effective for representing contact between the human and the divine-here, the appearance of an angel to the Roman centurion Cornelius (Acts of the Apostles). The angel tells him to seek out St. Peter, who will then preach to him about Christ. Eeckhout also adopted Rembrandt's use of details to engage the viewer, such as the centurion's gestures of submission to greater authority-arms crossed on the chest and his officer's ceremonial war axe laid on the ground. The cistern at the left foreshadows Cornelius's baptism by St. Peter.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2015 7:01 am 
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yes but, all of that is a "modern" invention to explain a symbol that's been misunderstood.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2015 10:47 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
yes but, all of that is a "modern" invention to explain a symbol that's been misunderstood.


Considering I'm citing Paleographers rather then Theologians that shouldn't be a surprise.

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 Post subject: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 11:34 pm 
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Image

Is that the Omega as an anchor?

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 6:51 pm 
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P - S with a cross signifies Pius.(Pious)

et les lettres P. S. Pius, titre que ces rois wisigoths se donnaient, à l'exemple des empereurs romains.


The Wisigothic kings styled themselves P.S. Pius ...following the example of the Roman Emperors.

Image

Pius = pious, devout, dutiful, loyal, good, blessed, holy.
@ Paddy ....From Old French pie


Nothing to do with the "P-S" on the Monogrammed cross however.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 6:55 pm 
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Quote:
Is that the Omega as an anchor?


That's the "omega" as the E.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2015 1:27 am 
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Sheila wrote:
Quote:
Is that the Omega as an anchor?


That's the "omega" as the E.


The anchor is a the sign of Apollo and one of symbols of the 1st century Christian church.
Seleucus was supposedly born with a birthmark of an anchor on his thigh which indicated Apollo as his paternity. Pythagoras also took advantage of this myth by saying he had a golden birthmark on his thigh if not an actual golden thigh which allowed Pythagorean ideology to claim kinship to the God, Apollo.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3890&p=116913&hilit=thigh#p116913
Sheila wrote:
This Hyperborean Abaris was elderly, and most wise in sacred concerns, being a priest of the Apollo there worshipped. At that time he was returning from Greece to his country, in order to consecrate the gold which he had collected to the God in his temple among the Hyperboreans. As therefore he was passing through Italy, he saw Pythagoras, and identified him as the God of whom he was the priest.

Believing that Pythagoras resembled no man, but was none other than the God himself, Apollo, both from the venerable indications he saw around him, and from those the priest already knew, he paid him homage by giving him a sacred dart. This dart he had taken with him when he had left his temple, as an implement that would stand him in good stead in the difficulties that might befall him in so long a journey for in passing through inaccessible places, such as rivers, lakes, marshes, mountains and the like, it carried him, and by it he was said to have performed lustrations and expelled winds and pestilences from the cities that requested him to liberate them from such evils. For instance, it was said that Lacedaemon, after having been by him purified, was no longer infected with pestilence, which formerly had been endemic, through the noxious nature of the ground, in the suffocating heat produced by the overhanging mountain Taygetus, just as happens with Cnossus in Crete. Many other similar circumstances were reported of Abaris.

Pythagoras, however, accepted the dart, without expressing any amazement at the novelty of the thing, nor asking why the dart was presented to him, as if he really was a God. Then he took Abaris aside, and showed him his golden thigh, as an indication that he was not wholly mistaken [in his estimate of his real nature.] Then Pythagoras described to him several details of his distant Hyperborean temple, as proof of deserving being considered divine. Pythagoras also added that he came [into the regions of mortality] to remedy and improve the condition of the human race, having assumed human form lest men, disturbed by the novelty of his transcendency should avoid the discipline he advised.


Sheila wrote:
..... sounds kinda like Constantine's supposed experience doesn't it.


P.o.S emblem
Image

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 Post subject: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2015 11:27 pm 
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In the PoS symbol, the lower bar differs from the RLC church version.

The PoS lower bar is actually a thigh bone - very Templar.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2015 6:07 pm 
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a bone...but not a thigh bone.


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 Post subject: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2015 12:13 am 
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The "S" resembles a serpent - does the "M" stand

for MM? Not a thigh bone, well, a skull and cross-bones

bone then.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2015 12:45 am 
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The "bones" depicted in most skull and cross-bone icons are almost always stylised and don't actually conform anatomically to a human bone, they do often, however, resemble the thigh (femur) or lower leg (tibia) bones. Occasionally the upper arm (humerus). All other long human bones are too small in diameter to be considered.
The "bones" can be anything vaguely resembling something relatively long, and often bear a reference to the user of the icon...eg, two bombs for a bomber squadron, or two crossed cutlasses.
If intended to resemble a bone, the depiction is often the long section with two "condyles" at either end, condyles being half spheres. This is the appearance especially of the femur where it articulates with the tibia at the knee joint. But not at the hip joint.
The PoS symbol above does not conform to any human bone of which I am aware, perhaps at a stretch it vaguely resembles a femur. But it's a long bow.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2015 7:12 am 
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Other type of bone dear sir.

I'll leave you to ponder.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2015 8:03 am 
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Sheila wrote:
Other type of bone dear sir.

I'll leave you to ponder.


I'm not really fussed, but just to amuse you dear lady, there are two "types" of bone, cancellous and cortical.
You would like me to choose? Or could you be more recondite?

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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2015 5:06 pm 
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Quote:
Or could you be more recondite?


certainly sir ...

PoS ...turn it around a few times.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2015 10:49 pm 
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Could be a humerous i suppose, at a stretch ....


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2015 5:58 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVHqTzyZ-oM


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2015 6:11 pm 
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Yeah right...time wasting... what is with you guys !


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2015 8:44 pm 
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Im honestly not time wasting ....

You said think of another bone? I was looking to see which other bone might be considered similar?


...PoS - turn it around a few times?


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 Post subject: Re: The "Crista"
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2015 6:04 am 
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I know you're not Sandy.

Affirmative to both your queries.
PoS turn it inside out.


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